What IS cheating?

[T'krau]

The discussions over here - http://www.dreamcatchergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19916&page=10&pp=10 - got me wondering...is is 'cheating', when using something like Powermad, to help advance the game? When I was playing thru Baldur's Gate ll for the first time, I spent two weeks trying to finish off the golems in Nalia's keep. I finally got so frustrated that I D/L'ed the cheat codes, just to get past the mutha's. I used Powermad (once) on the Balcony jump (City On Water), before seeing Varus's video.

Now, I'm just stubborn enough to spend a LOT of time trying to do it the 'honest' way, if for nothing else than my own 'pride and honor,' or some BS like that. At some point, tho, it's no longer 'fun' to beat my head against the same d*mn Evil Thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER...

For that matter, is looking up a walkthru cheating?

Any thoughts?

[RichmanRush]

I consider cheating bad only when it's done to another person and their game experience (ie Multiplayer).

I don't care if you use 'god mode' and 'give all', or look up walkthroughs/hint guides as long as you have fun with the game, who cares if you cheat. Some games are easy to beat, others you rack your brain and don't care to load the level for the eighteen-hundredth time at 3 minutes a pop just to solve a puzzle or beat the level-boss.

Cheat codes do serve their purpose, though debateable I'm sure; Game reviewers often use them as it makes the process quicker. Often times after I beat a game, I'll use cheat codes to run through the game again looking for stuff that I missed (hidden areas, secrets, etc). And they also help in testing game mechanics out (using god mode and rocket jumping in every nook and cranny of a MP map to find any bugs, glitches, map holes etc) which is why they are sometimes referred to as dev (developer) codes.

[T'krau]

...is is 'cheating',...
That's supposed to be "is IT cheating" - geez, I want an edit button that sits and stays!

[T'krau]

*A few days (and flaming posts) later...*

About now, I'm REALLY sorry I put this up here...

[kalme]

Don't feel sorry. It was a legitimate and interesting question, and I was hoping to see some more (impartial) discussions about it in this thread. It's not your fault things got out of control on this topic in the general forum.

[T'krau]

I was gone for a couple of days - when I got back, and started catching up w/current events, I was afraid that the fuss had started HERE ("Oh, geez, what have I DONE?!?"). I'm not sure whether I was relieved or saddened at finding out the real cause...

I STILL think it's a legitimate question, and would like feedback on it. Anyone still want to discuss this?

[*****]

Look at it this way:- You had one method of doing something and now you have two ... :D

I've tried every method, with advantages and without. Even edited many levels so that they're completly dark, like in the Orphanage. Scared the pants off me in all those levels and took me forever, even with Powermad!

Just have fun :D

Ripin2U

[T'krau]

Just have fun
See, now that's my point - I used to feel kinda guilty about using 'help' in a game, but if it's a choice between continuing the game by using a walkthru or a cheatcode to get past a tough spot, or sitting there expanding my daughter's vocabulary (which doesn't NEED help in the first place)...

[Bjossi]

Cheating is when you either don´t beat single player like the level makers intended, without walkthroughs or cheat command. Or in multiplayer, by using something that´s not skill-based like aimbot.

That´s my oppinion.

[kalme]

Cheating is when you either don´t beat single player like the level makers intended
Hmm... did you see my "Loony Park with less than 30 kills" video? I surely didn't play the level how the developers intended to, but is this cheating? I just used the level geometrie to make my life a little bit more easy.

[T'krau]

...like the level makers intended...
More than once, I've read interviews with game designers who basically said "we didn't know you could do it THAT way, until the game came out and we started getting feedback from players..." (Morrowind comes to mind).

[Bjossi]

Hmm... did you see my "Loony Park with less than 30 kills" video? I surely didn't play the level how the developers intended to, but is this cheating? I just used the level geometrie to make my life a little bit more easy.

I don´t have BooH, so I don´t watch any videos to spoil it for me. ;)
But that is cheating imo. You´re using a glitch or a bug to finish the level easier, not how it was supposed to be finished.

But it is kind of a two side oppinion, it might not be cheating if you didn´t use a command or help like aimbot. But it might be cheating if the level wasn´t supposed to be finished in a "glitchy" way.

@T´krau: The players most of the time find the bugs, not those who make the patch, and the worst thing is that they don´t listen to the community often when making patches, just fix what they´ve seen.

[T'krau]

Borrowed this from another thread...

Some of his clips contain stuff you haven't seen anywhere before, like his discoveries in the wall-climbing movie (yeah, it works!) or alternative ways to some of the secrets.For what it's worth, THIS is what I meant when I said...

More than once, I've read interviews with game designers who basically said "we didn't know you could do it THAT way, until the game came out and we started getting feedback from players..."
Is/was stuff like this (wall-climbing) intentionally put in the game for us to find, or is it an unintentional treat?

[CHFlagg]

For me cheating is not even trying to accomplish the goal yourself.

I installed Powermad for the patches initially. But after jumping that (@$&&) vine for the humpting time, I used powermad to finish the level.

I feel that you must at least give it a good try. When you are swearing to make sailors blush. It's time to do something and move on.

[T'krau]

I don´t have BooH...
BTW - you are SO missing out...

[Artas1984]

I don´t have BooH, so I don´t watch any videos to spoil it for me. ;)
But that is cheating imo. You´re using a glitch or a bug to finish the level easier, not how it was supposed to be finished.



No! How can you say that?!

The Loony run definitely was no cheating!
Shortcuts may be what developers did not expected from hardcore players like kalme.
Think when the most famous in the history of FPS MP games Q2DM1 arena was made - the edge, you think the developers of this map expected that some unreal damm good players would learn those fantasctic jumps?
Of course not.
It is always like that - players find what the creators did not thought of!
Though kalme is the source of powermad :D , the circus level was a clear, do not forget Frag's resembling gothrough the loony park.
Anyway, it is hard to describe what cheating means - god is a cheat of course, but what about such mods like "keepbodies"...or set fov...
Those should be a chrarged as cheats due console use, but what effect do they do? So, cheating is hard to explain.

[spyware]

. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v. tr.
To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.
To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

[BloodBuster]

hmmm - there were times when I was so frustrated trying to get some of the secrets in PK that, as CHFlagg mentions, the air was blue with obscenities and I almost broke my keyboard by punching it. In fact I am suprised that with the abuse my keyboard got while playing PK, it still works.

Then again, that is what I like about PK. That I was so 'emotional' rofl


Anyway - I cheated when trying to get the secrets off the cranes. They were hard. Once, I also ran through the entire game using the weakenemies command which although making it easy allowed me a degree of vengeance and was VERY satisfying hehe... (satisfyingly sadistic!).

It is, IMO, acceptable to use 'alternative' methods when you risk cardiovascular breakdown. However, those folks who cheat without trying... well, there was no point in purchasing the product in that case.

[Str1ker]

well cheating. uncomfortable topic...

as you know I rarely played the SP... but if I used to cheat cause I want to make the game funnier for me. I never used god mode but "cheats" pkweapons and pkammo. that was just for fun.
and there is nothing to say against it.
but I'd never say that I fininshed that level. I finished some of the levels but if I say that I "finished" it I am talking about going through there without cheats.

cheating in MP; aimbots are cheats. no discussion for me. things like wall hacks (pretty useless in pk imo but used in CS a lot) are cheats as well.
but what about console comands such as /fov?
all that options that are in the menu or changeable in the config are no cheats imo.
it is difficult to explain.

imo cheating is ok for fun as long as you do not harm any other players...

[T'krau]

from the For What It's Worth dep't. - Any and all screenshots posted by me are from actual 'combat situations'. To me, a staged shot has less appeal than one taken in the heat of battle.

This is not meant at all to denigrate other people's screens taken with Powermad's help (anyone remember the shot of the airborne Witch, taken over the Town? The camera was about a foot away from her face...cool). I think this goes back to when I was a news photographer. Your career could be RUINED if it was discovered that you staged a photo, and passed it off as 'real.'

- edit - There are 2 screens of mine posted over at PPK that could be considered 'staged' - the 'Gladys Knightmare...' shots, in Loony Park. The game hung, and I couldn't help it. There, disclosure...I can sleep easier now.

[fleabay]

If its a single player game and you feel bad about using 'alternative methods' to acheive a success, its cheating.

[T'krau]

I like that.

[Frag Maniac]

OK, good post actually, the words cheat, cheaters, etc are thrown around too loosely and rather vainly IMO, often times by those that are having a hard time with what they are reading or seeing reguarding someone elses gameplay.

Very good point in saying that even reading a walkthough is technically cheating, and I've been the victim of accusations thrown at me by those that refer people to them. Their only reason for implying I must need cheats myself was that I had done them same, refer some having problems to help sites.

The last ridiculous accusation that came up, was on a Far Cry forum, where a guy from Germany (coincidence?) saw the first minute or so of one of my videos, claimed it suddenly blacked out (or was he just too vain to watch it?), and came back to PM me saying I was using a weapon that wasn't available in that map.

It's not only available in the first hut on the first Island in that map (Boat) as it's first appearance in the game as a weapon cache, it's availabe from one of the dead mercs (course you do have to shoot him first) at the end of the Regulator level two levels before that!

He was also mistakenly calling it a "GL35" instead of AG36.:D

This is a guy that has his own website and lots of screenshots walking people through each map on how to sneak through certain places in maps where the enemy can do little or no harm to you, in some cases beating a level without killing any enemies. Some might consider that cheating, as the developers certainly must have intended for you to use those nice weapons they provided.

Cheating as I said, is an all too often used term, and should be reserved mostly for MP IMO. For one thing, there is no such thing as legitimately made cheats for MP, which are sometimes called hacks.

Since the term cheat has been used for both sp and mp, it is now becoming a thing where anyone using help commands, gameplay aids, any number of things they could have and should have been called, are now suspect if they enter an mp arena, and largely due to the mouths of a few that can't seem to mind their own business.

[Artas1984]

The last ridiculous accusation that came up, was on a Far Cry forum, where a guy from Germany (coincidence?) saw the first minute or so of one of my videos, claimed it suddenly blacked out (or was he just too vain to watch it?), and came back to PM me saying I was using a weapon that wasn't available in that map.

It's not only available in the first hut on the first Island in that map (Boat) as it's first appearance in the game as a weapon cache, it's availabe from one of the dead mercs (course you do have to shoot him first) at the end of the Regulator level two levels before that!



Have you at least explained him that the weapon is available?

And cheaters in SP - they are still cheaters nomater if i should not care how they play, i say they loose the taste of game!

[Frag Maniac]

Have you at least explained him that the weapon is available?Of course I explained it to him, but it didn't really change his smug attitude. I hear he's been banned about 3 times, and had his last ban lifted because of his "contributions".

I don't really care for the mod that made the decision either, or some of his other decisions for that matter, and have contacted Ubisoft about it.

They replied very promptly and assured me the right person has been contacted to sort things out.

[BloodBuster]

Have you at least explained him that the weapon is available?

And cheaters in SP - they are still cheaters nomater if i should not care how they play, i say they loose the taste of game!

Fair enough. But what is your opinion of those folks who try and try and try and then cheat because otherwise they are unable to progress through the game?

[Frag Maniac]

Fair enough. But what is your opinion of those folks who try and try and try and then cheat because otherwise they are unable to progress through the game?Exactly, I respect that some have a very high level of skill, but others have certain problems for what ever reason, and it's a bit self righteous to lay down some kind of sp video game law on how they should play it in the privacy of their own home.

How many people here do you really think both cheat at sp and brag about it Artas, aren't you the one being a bit arrogant here?

The only time I have a problem with someone sp cheating is when they engage in an sp challenge and try to con those competing into believing they're not.

Other than that, it's a dead issue as far as I'm concerned.

Thank God most people here don't obsess with sp challenges, there are plenty of servers for that kind of mindset, it's called MP though.:rolleyes:

I'll leave you with one last thought, did it ever occur to you that perhaps some of the angst filled mp cheaters out there started out as legitimate players, and became enraged when they were talked smack to by those that were having a field day with them?

Mouthing off about sp or mp players has it's repercussions, you can count on it.;)

[Str1ker]

Exactly, I respect that some have a very high level of skill, but others have certain problems for what ever reason, and it's a bit self righteous to lay down some kind of sp video game law on how they should play it in the privacy of their own home.
I agree with that
plus: I don't care about 'cheater' as long as I am not involved in their cheating...
but if somebody comes along and shows off with whatever he/she did and he/she cheated to archive it I can't really be angry but I can feel sorry for him...

But what is your opinion of those folks who try and try and try and then cheat because otherwise they are unable to progress through the game?
good point. I think the words cheat/cheating/cheater are bad words. if you here them you think "oh!". when I think about it I can't really understand it.
cheating in sp is everybody's own business.
as I am not english/american I am not sure about the words but if I am right I would rather use the word 'to betray' instead of 'to cheat' for people that cheat in MP in order to get an advantage...

[Artas1984]

Fair enough. But what is your opinion of those folks who try and try and try and then cheat because otherwise they are unable to progress through the game?

I agree with your states, honestlly, you guys think i have not cheated when i played PK on insomnia? Ha, demonmorph and haste were my favorite cheats!
I even used pkgod back then when i first encounterd the dreadful docks level...
So, guess i am on your side.
But it would be really stupid to cheat for us Frag, unless you wanna join the speedruns and time attacks with all available weapons:-)
Haste is a very beutiful cheat:-), pkkeepdecals and bodies also:-)
God cheat is fair for new players in levels like CoW and Docks, i understand that, but one cheat that really sucks - pkweakenenemies.

[BloodBuster]

Time for Kalme to chip in again - what does keepdecals do? What are decals?

[Artas1984]

It alows you to keep stains of blood, blood...and that is cool.
Good screens are made with such "cheat".
I always turn my decals on 5x.

[BloodBuster]

ahhh - so it is not a cheat?

[T'krau]

It's a part of Powermad, yet not a cheat. There's also the command to keep both decals and bodies in place at all times, rather than the fadeout normally seen. This can be fun - you can see just how much carnage you've wreaked (it does take comp. power to do this tho, so weaker systems could have a problems with this on).

[Frag Maniac]

I agree with your states, honestlly, you guys think i have not cheated when i played PK on insomnia? Ha, demonmorph and haste were my favorite cheats!
I even used pkgod back then when i first encounterd the dreadful docks level...
So, guess i am on your side.
But it would be really stupid to cheat for us Frag, unless you wanna join the speedruns and time attacks with all available weapons:-)
Haste is a very beutiful cheat:-), pkkeepdecals and bodies also:-)
God cheat is fair for new players in levels like CoW and Docks, i understand that, but one cheat that really sucks - pkweakenenemies.See, this is what I'm talking about, the only thing you mentioned in the above that really IS a cheat, are the console commands.

Using the tarot cards is NOT cheating, it's part of the game. I beleive one of the best ways to compare your sp gaming, is to measure total gold at the end of the game, because in doing so it also accounts for the gold you spend, ie: the cards you use.

I happen to feel there are only a few levels using cards is really necessary, in fact one can eventually beat even those levels without them, being Enclave, Ruins, and Tower.

For some, using the cards is just a way to make the game more fun, and quicker to play, and you do pay for them, so why call it cheating?

[BloodBuster]

It's a part of Powermad, yet not a cheat. There's also the command to keep both decals and bodies in place at all times, rather than the fadeout normally seen. This can be fun - you can see just how much carnage you've wreaked (it does take comp. power to do this tho, so weaker systems could have a problems with this on).

I tried the keepbodies command in Atrium Complex once, but ended up with a pile of them in a doorway and had a devil of a job getting through it. They also get in the way when your rampaging through an area - but I will try this command in a level with wide open spaces...

[Artas1984]

It's a part of Powermad, yet not a cheat. There's also the command to keep both decals and bodies in place at all times, rather than the fadeout normally seen. This can be fun - you can see just how much carnage you've wreaked (it does take comp. power to do this tho, so weaker systems could have a problems with this on).

Well a part of MP, you know better, but "pkkeepdecals" and "pkkeepbodies" are normally available in normal game on daydream and insomnia levels as a part of commands in console.
But these are still cheats. The stronger cheat is "pkkeepbodies" since it allows you to gib as much gold as you want and that is not fair.
Ou and what sense is to you use "pkkeepbodies" if you can not get souls?
Keep decals is not that dangerous, though settings allow you to keep stains quite long without cheating.



I happen to feel there are only a few levels using cards is really necessary, in fact one can eventually beat even those levels without them, being Enclave, Ruins, and Tower.


The only SP normal level where i feel that cards are needed is the snowy bridge itself. And enclave, swamp, ruins, tower - all of the timed boss levels can be made not only without cards and cheats, but in the recquired time on trauma! Of course Alastor is the hardest.



For some, using the cards is just a way to make the game more fun, and quicker to play, and you do pay for them, so why call it cheating?

No one did it here? Right? I would suggest to use cards.

[Frag Maniac]

No one did it here? Right? I would suggest to use cards.This is what made it look like you were calling card use cheating...

Ha, demonmorph and haste were my favorite cheats!...you refered to "Demon Morph", and "Haste", not the console commands used for the equivalent cheat, so one could only assume you meant the cards instead.

[Artas1984]

No! Frag, why have you understood this way, would i be so stupid to say that i think of cards as of cheats? Of course no!
This topic is too general, lets continue on general pk site - Cow 10000 gold...

[spyware]

He thought you meant pkdemon & pkhaste (probably) these are cheats.
pkgod, pkammo, pkweapons and so on..

[fleabay]

I once thought about putting a PKwin (or PMwin) command in Powermad. :)

[BloodBuster]

I once thought about putting a PKwin (or PMwin) command in Powermad. :)

LOL!

how about-
pkdownonyourkneesandbegformercy

[Frag Maniac]

No! Frag, why have you understood this way, ...I thought I made it clear, by saying "Demon Morph", and "Haste", you made it look/sound like you meant the cards, rather than saying "pkdemon", and "pkhaste", which are the cheat commands.

I understand now what you meant, you just didn't make it very clear the way you said it that's all.;)

[T'krau]

how about-
pkscottysavemyass

[SOULTAKER]

In the words of the great George Costanza...

"It's not a lie if you believe it" :D :D :D


Originally Posted by *****
Look at it this way:- You had one method of doing something and now you have two ... :D
Personally I thought this was the best answer...

[Str1ker]

I liked that one too ;)

@ artas: why are you the one that decides what reasonable cheats are?

[Artas1984]

I liked that one too ;)

@ artas: why are you the one that decides what reasonable cheats are?

What are you saying?
I do not decide a thing!!!
Don't start to push me, bud.
We do not want another flame, a?
I was'nt saying anything!!!
If you did not noticed, i agree with Bloodbuster and most of the dudes here about some cheating situations, so everything is fine.
No one is accusing no one here, and never did i the same.
It is always that people like you, T'krau, Machete Lover do not understand what i have said and imagine something wrong.
The only wrong thing i did was to attack Grinder, nothing more!

[Str1ker]

chill man.
that was not an attack.
I just noticed that you used the headline "reasonable cheats" for one of your posts before and was wondering why somebody or just anybody (in this case you) can decide which ones are reasonable and which aren't.


We do not want another flame, a?
no thanks -- I don't want to.

I think that main problem still is the definition of 'cheat' and everyone's interpretation of the other definitions.... difficult topic.

[Artas1984]

Ok, so what i wanted to say reasonable is that those reasons are to get "heavy" secrets like docks crane or catacombs, or to keep yourself alive in hard situations like snowy bridge or babel's knights assault under the arches of hidden urn secret.

That fits only for mid and low skilled players. :rolleyes:
And even i am not that really high.
Well, i am little more than moderate, though in quake2 i am too weak even to join the majority of the servers cause i would only make people laugh :D , but still i feel simphaty for quake2, but some dudes here in PK can do what is a "hard rock caffe" for me:-)