The Camping/Rest System

[Narserke]

Spellbooks/Crystals will be more rare, the one charge will give you a quick taste of the spell to use, and the boost to your max becomes a tiny character upgrade. To recover your spells to max, the players can rest at a campfire (see Camping). I am reaaaally like this aspect, as you can camp, fill your magic, and then you must use it judiciously over the course of a dungeon and will have to try and save some up for the boss... - Chuk22

So what does everyone thing of the DL camping/rest system? If I interpret what chuk22 said, it seems that you will only be able to rest at a campire, and there will be no fires in dungeons..which makes since in a lot of ways. Also, in the demo you heal without resting, all be it slowly..and you are likely to have a random encounter before you fully heal that way. Do you think the resting system will replace this, or be in addition to it, and more importantly, do you want it to stay?

IMHO, I think there resting system sounds very balanced and will provide a nice challenge, especially for casters. It's not too extreme one way or the other. NWNs, when it first came out, had a way to easy rest system, as long as there wasn't an enemy standing right next to you, you could rest. Diablo 2 has the extreme oppostie..the only way to heal and get your health and mana back was potions. As for the slow healing in the demo, I see no problem with it staying. It's too slow to really hurt anything, and it could help in dungeons when you are running low on potions. You would have your character, down to 25% of their health, and they have to hide and hope they don't run into anything until the heal enough to keep going. Pointing points into vitality could even ever so slight speed up the process, if only a little. chuk22 also mentioned that when you come near an npc such as simon or the gate guard, you would have no worries about random encounter monsters attacking, and I really like this, it's really annoying talking to someone and then suddenly getting attacked..but that's another thread. So what say you?

[Mythor]

Just a correction first - in D2 your mana would regenerate on it's own, it was only Health that wouldn't. Though you could find items that would add Health regen too. :)

I really hope camping/resting is allowed in dungeons, otherwise mage characters are still going to be forced into having decent melee skills, unless you're going to be able to save up very large numbers of your spells.
With Nether magic I can see that being possible, since you can just mix up as many of your spells of choice as you can get ingredients for. Not so sure how well it'll work for Celestial, since you'll need a whole bunch of the stones. Arcane could be even worse.

Less fussed over whether they allow Health regen or not. You can take potions for that. Since it's not a mana based magic system though...

Whilst my "mage" characters will likely have at least some basic melee skill (armour, shields, light weapons maybe) it would be kinda annoying to have to rely on hand to hand combat when you're supposed to be a mage.

[Tenka]

Spellbooks/Crystals will be more rare, the one charge will give you a quick taste of the spell to use, and the boost to your max becomes a tiny character upgrade. To recover your spells to max, the players can rest at a campfire (see Camping). I am reaaaally like this aspect, as you can camp, fill your magic, and then you must use it judiciously over the course of a dungeon and will have to try and save some up for the boss... - Chuk22


This is starting to sound a little like Diablo 1's spell system, find the books read the books, know the spells. Finding more of the same book and reading them would increase the spell level, the higher the current spell level, the more Magic-attribute it required to read the book.. I imagine there may be a similar system requiring intelligence for DL.

[Narserke]

Just a correction first - in D2 your mana would regenerate on it's own, it was only Health that wouldn't. Though you could find items that would add Health regen too. :)

I really hope camping/resting is allowed in dungeons, otherwise mage characters are still going to be forced into having decent melee skills, unless you're going to be able to save up very large numbers of your spells.
With Nether magic I can see that being possible, since you can just mix up as many of your spells of choice as you can get ingredients for. Not so sure how well it'll work for Celestial, since you'll need a whole bunch of the stones. Arcane could be even worse.

Less fussed over whether they allow Health regen or not. You can take potions for that. Since it's not a mana based magic system though...

Whilst my "mage" characters will likely have at least some basic melee skill (armour, shields, light weapons maybe) it would be kinda annoying to have to rely on hand to hand combat when you're supposed to be a mage.


It's been a while since i played Diablo 2, and i forgot mana regened.

well the thing about this game that i think is good is that you can take other skills, so even if you could rest in dungeons, it probably wouldn't hurt to have some melee skills as back up for tight situations. however, i think that staffs have the ability to fire unlimited or maybe limited spell charges..depending on whatever spell they use..the goblin staffs were firing magic missle i think, and i've seen pictures of a staff that looked like it was firing a fireball..and really you should choose at least two areas of magic if you are an arcane class...and nether summoning would be a good one..you can summon stuff do do all your melee fighting for you while you sit back and wait..and don't forget that there are going to be lots of other arcane classes that probably have melee talents as well..the warwitch sounds like one

[onewolf]

the thing that still worries me is the regen time for runes/crystals. this should really be modified by your skills or attributes or both, since the regen rate (in the demo at least) was so incredibly slow that there is no way you could have relied solely on either one.

[Mythor]

well the thing about this game that i think is good is that you can take other skills, so even if you could rest in dungeons, it probably wouldn't hurt to have some melee skills as back up for tight situations.
I was actually thinking about some acrobatic/athletic skill to run away too! :)

But it would be unfair to make Mages be required to take on melee fighting skills, since melee fighters are unlikely to be similarly needing some Mage skills?

[onewolf]

as a general rule, i enjoy being permitted to play as "pure" characters. theives and mages should have some kind of mechanism built in to ensure their validity. supplemental magic abilities are cool also, but purity in character types makes for replayable games.

[Narserke]

as a general rule, i enjoy being permitted to play as "pure" characters. theives and mages should have some kind of mechanism built in to ensure their validity. supplemental magic abilities are cool also, but purity in character types makes for replayable games.


Actually, generally I also like being a pure character..but that was more cause it seemed you had make some kind of sacrifice, spread out your points more instead of being able to focus. however, this game seems to make it a little easier to at least take the skills of another class, so i am still a warrior, i just learned a few other tricks that will be helpful from time to time. like i used some of the magic spells as a powerful ranged option..to help against mostly other ranged creatures, like the goblin mages and the balistas..and i used the iceball to halt the war troll then slash him so he couldn't knock me back so much..had i just tried slashing him, it would have taken longer and hurt me more. with all the classes we will have in release, and the ability to add more classes, i think this will be a good time to multiclass and basically create my own class like you could with morrowind.

D&D games like NWN aren't good for multiclasses, because while you can get the abilities of other classes as well as using those of your main class, both classes are weaker then if you focused just one one.

and, this game doesn't really force you to take any other skills, it's just a really good idea..a mage taking a few melee skills isn't necessary, but it might help in a pinch, and no one has to take thief skills, if they are willing to sacrafice all the stuff in the various trapped chest, and in exchange have a few more points for your melee skills.

[chamr]

I think what folks are asking for is to be able to play a pure mage or thief and be effective. A tall order in a single character game. The classic mage or thief is very, very hard to make viable without a party system. I doubt DL will be any different. I'm sure it's possible to not put a singe point into weapons or armor for a mage character and still make it through the game, but I'm sure getting off the ground will be slow, painful going with lots of deaths. Especially without a mana system. I think it will be a while longer before a single character cRPG will come out that handles a character that never melees as well as one that does. Some day I'll be able to play a character that almost never gets into direct conflict, but still levels and is fun & challenging to play. Someday...

[Mythor]

If you're expected to kill 100 creatures (+ random encounters?) in a dungeon you can't camp in and you can only "store" 20 spells, then you're probably not going to be able to finish the dungeon with spells alone.
Which will mean you won't be using melee skills in a pinch, it'll be a regular occurence. :(

Taking cross-class skills is a nice option, but it should only be an option.

It's all kind of a moot point at the moment anyway, until we find out if we can "camp/rest" in a dungeon. If we just have to not be in range of a creature and we can then rest wherever we like, it should be fine. You'll still need to make sure you don't pull in too many opponents for the number of spells you have remaining, but if you want to be cautious and rest often, you can, etc.

We'll see I guess. :)

[chamr]

CHUK22's original post on the subject explicitly stated you would NOT be able to camp in dungeons.

It certainly would be neat if you weren't forced to kill hundreds of monsters to succeed. If you could sneak by or out-wit or have other ways of advancing (studying magic, experimenting in a lab, gaining political influence, whatever), that sure would be cool! But again, that's definitely out for DL, according to interviews, and I think we're still a few evolutions away from it in any real way in cRPG's. Maybe Oblivion will prove me wrong, but I doubt it. As it stands, ya still gotta kill tons of stuff to advance in just about any cRPG I've ever seen.

[Narserke]

Morrowind was like that wasn't it?

Mythor..you do have an option, it's just one of those options where it's harder to choose one way then the other. You don't have to take melee skills, it's just that if you don't the game will be harder for you. It's really the kind of option that's like, you don't have to breath, but if you don't you die:)

the problem is that if they make it so you can rest often, then it will be abused..they should give you the ability to rest in a dungeon, well mages should have some other way of regening spells at least..but perhaps you will eventually find a good enough staff that even if your spells run out, the staff will help with it's spells. a mana system would only be usefull in this instance if it regenerated naturally..in morrowind and gothic 2 it didn't.

but don't let this post think i don't agree with you, there should be a way to rest in the dungeons, but that just makes the came a little hardcore, and it just means you can't just bang spells out...we will see how it works in the game..maybe one day they will add a "build a fire" skill:)

[Mythor]

Actually, you can't hold your breath until you die. If you manage to hold your breath long enough you'll pass out and your body will reflexively begin breathing again. ;)

I realise that you do have a choice if you can't camp within a dungeon, but it's not really much of a choice. Who wants to backtrack all the way through a dungeon to the outside world just to regain enough spells to continue on? The game will essentially be forcing you to take up *some-other-skill* in order to complete areas where resting isn't an option.
Most other games with such a restriction on spellcasting still let you camp/rest, so long as you're sufficiently far from other creatures.

If there's going to be magic staves or wands or what have you, that may work out okay, as they fit within a typical Magician's equipment.

I just think it'd be a shame if Mage characters are going to be forced into having to spend points on melee things.
It's certainly not going to stop me trying, though. :)

[Narserke]

No, when i said have a choice, i didn't mean about camping in dungeons, i mean about selecting out of class skills. But yeah, I understand what kind of choice it is. They must have a reason for the saying no camping in dungeons.

[Mythor]

Sorry, yes, I understood you correctly but re-reading my post I realised I wasn't very clear.

I think the idea is twofold - they want you to be conservative with your spell casting and they might also be trying to push players towards multi-classing to a small extent.
Without seeing the changes in action I guess it's really too soon to judge. That they added a "camp/rest" option at all gives me hope, since in the demo all the Arcane spells at least require you to loot more and more books.

Yet another thing we all have to wait and see for! :)

[NecroViolator]

The thing Im worried about is:
What if I want to continue on my merry way but my friend wants to sleep. ?

Do I continue and my friend wait for about 30-40 minutes real life and I continue fighting and getting treasures ?.

In Morrowind, you CAN sleep in dungeons and so on, but ONLY if a monster isnt in the vacinity.

[onewolf]

i am usually not so picky about things, but if i have to melee with my mage, i probably won't play one. thwacking something fifty times with my weak melee skills would just **** me off.

on the other hand, there is very likely a class (or several) that allows you to use multiple types of magic, and having lots of runes and celestial and mage and collecting katals as you progress through a dungeon would help to alleviate this problem.

so maybe a pure mage isn't viable, but a pure spellcaster is.

[Gehenna]

I know that's a stupid question...
But how can i rest/camp to get my spells back?!

[Mythor]

You can't in the demo, it's an addition they've made since the demo was made.

[Gehenna]

You can't in the demo, it's an addition they've made since the demo was made.
Blah, bye bye my Gehenna mage....
So it' s impossible to finish demo playing mage character? Or there is other way to restore spells?
Tnak U for answer

[phalzyr]

spell do rejuve over time try waiting 5 dayd real time and you'lll get a couple spells back :D Creatures tend to drop a lot of spelss in the demo and the staff has spell on it.

[Mythor]

It's pretty much impossible for an Arcane mage to finish the demo. If you used ALL the schools of magic, you could probably finish. But realisticly you're going to have to do some melee or archery combat to conserve spells at times.

[onewolf]

It's pretty much impossible for an Arcane mage to finish the demo. If you used ALL the schools of magic, you could probably finish. But realisticly you're going to have to do some melee or archery combat to conserve spells at times.

its totally impossible, even if you try and rush through only killing goblins (who drop scrolls most often) you don't even come close, especially once you hit the hill troll/ogre/whatever that big *** thing is.

if you throw in the nether spells, it can be done, but dammit if i don't love pure characters, and i sincerely hope that should i choose to create a caster that i won't suffer the whole way through.....

still the biggest concern of mine (and has never been addressed since my first post the day the demo was released) is that regeneration time required for runes/celestial magic is NOT influenced by either skills in the school of magic or any of the attributes. my GOD is the rate slow.

[Mythor]

I said pretty much impossible because it *might* be possible if you got insanely lucky with the loot drops and everything was dropping at least one spellbook. And all the chests dropped them too. Etc.
Without regen though there's just no real possibility. :(

Intellect and skill in the appropriate field is supposed to help you in the final version of the game. I don't know that it does anything at all in the demo. :(

[Zebulon]

.................................................. ...still the biggest concern of mine (and has never been addressed since my first post the day the demo was released) is that regeneration time required for runes/celestial magic is NOT influenced by either skills in the school of magic or any of the attributes. my GOD is the rate slow.


I did some research on that some days ago.
Its exactly 9 sec to regenerate one point.doesnt matter how many INT you have (went up to 30 or so)
but maybe there is an item or trait that will enhance this.......
Anyone knows what the BLUE bar is for ????
Zeb

[Mythor]

Blue bar is your XP. Once it's full, you go up a level.

[phalzyr]

I could swear I read it somewhere that they added new skills, that made them rejuve faster. One for each class of magic...

[Narserke]

I could swear I read it somewhere that they added new skills, that made them rejuve faster. One for each class of magic...

well i would think that putting skill points into the various classes would make that class of magic rejuve faster..and i doubt that's just me. however, they could add a seperate skill called "magic regeneration" that controls the rate of magic rejuve for all the magic classes. already this game has a better magic system then morrowind, which was absolute crap..and they let you rejuve when you rested, and you could rest most anywhere except in tombs i think.

[Mythor]

Intellect is supposed to make spells regenerate faster? I believe that's what the demo mouseover info says?

[Narserke]

Intellect is supposed to make spells regenerate faster? I believe that's what the demo mouseover info says?

i thought intellect improved your ability to attain skill advances, or in other words, it made skill coster lower by some percentage?

[Mythor]

I'd go check but I uninstalled it. :)
I know there was definitely the reference to the lower skill costs, but I thought there was something related to spells in the description too.

Guess it doesn't matter too much since the functionality of Intellect may have changed since then anyway. Seems a logical place to have the increased spell regeneration though, along with points in the appropriate magic school skill.

[Narserke]

I'm sure the manual will explain which skill helps with regen, and we just increase that one from time to time...i mean it seems that arcane magic will require resting to regen them, so it shouldn't matter how long it takes, as long as when the rest cycle is over, we have all our spells back..if all schools of magic require camping to get charges back, then i doubt it matters how fast, but since it obviously seems that at least celestial magic regens...then putting skill points in celestial magic should increase you ability and effectiveness in using it, and that should include regening it, a better user would be able to regen faster..

[onewolf]

putting skill points in celestial magic should increase you ability and effectiveness in using it, and that should include regening it

god **** right it should. same with runic magic.

[Narserke]

god **** right it should. same with runic magic.

well i mean it just makes sense, cause you have to imagine that you are using your power and ability with the magic to recharge the crystals and runes if they regen independent of resting. and that power increases with the points you put into the skill..

[phalzyr]

well i would think that putting skill points into the various classes would make that class of magic rejuve faster..and i doubt that's just me. however, they could add a seperate skill called "magic regeneration" that controls the rate of magic rejuve for all the magic classes. already this game has a better magic system then morrowind, which was absolute crap..and they let you rejuve when you rested, and you could rest most anywhere except in tombs i think.

Well they said the name of the skills and I don't think it was arcane, rune, nether.... darn wish I could find the chuck22 statement again... whether it is the skill itself or a new one seperate for rejuving quicker I guess it'd accomplish the same thing in the end. I just hope that I'm right about the feeling I got from reading chuck's message that arcane is going to rejuve just like celestrial...

AHA here is chuck22's message

The Alchemy, Scribe, and Channel skills allow magic classes to recharge the correpsonding magic types faster. Also, the more star-crystals you find, the more your max goes up. Thus, when you camp, if you have 20 max lightning charges but only 1 illusionary visage, after you camp you can shoot lightning all day, but will have to be judicious with the visage...

-CHUK

[chamr]

I just hope that I'm right about the feeling I got from reading chuck's message that arcane is going to rejuve just like celestrial...


Looks like Arcane is left out in that area. My guess:

Alchemy is for Nether
Scribe is for Rune
Channel is for Celestial
??? is for Arcane

Of course, I don't get why Nether would have a "rejuvination" component. Wouldn't it depend soley on how many of the ingredients you have? Maybe Alchemy is for Arcane...

[Narserke]

Looks like Arcane is left out in that area. My guess:

Alchemy is for Nether
Scribe is for Rune
Channel is for Celestial
??? is for Arcane

Of course, I don't get why Nether would have a "rejuvination" component. Wouldn't it depend soley on how many of the ingredients you have? Maybe Alchemy is for Arcane...

well to be honest i think you only need the katals to make the thing ones, after that it becomes an item with charges just like a book, that doesn't go away, just looses charge, and the alchemy is the way to recharge..i mean alchemy is the mixing of incredients or items to form something, and that fits with the way nether magic works. arcane seems to be shaping magical energies into things like magic missle and elemental attacks. maybe arcane is the only form of magic that requires you to rest to rejuve it, the others recharge naturally over a period of time, faster depending on putting points into the appropriate skill..

[phalzyr]

Darn didn't really notice that there was no ARcane oriented name... :( I thought nether was going to be combine ingrediants not recharge after one is made that kinda defeats purpose of combining ingrediants, why not just find spell less often or something... Oh well hopefully my arcane rejuves fast enough to attack more than one group of enemies. Even if enemies are weak it still takes one spell to kill them (each depending on spell). Though with dynamic creatures being same/near your level it bound to take more as you go on in game so something other than resting has to get back spells...