What do you guys think happened?

[wolf]

Hey everyone,

With regards to this whole demo thing, what do you all think happened? How do you think a demo so obviously buggy ended up on the www with official sanction from the publisher?

Here's what I think: DC were insistent on having a demo for this game since it has such good potential to be a hit for them this year and they were looking for a way to generate more hype about it. HP told them "we don't have a demo and we don't want to divert resources away from the main game to create a demo that will fairly reflect the retail game", and they were told to make a plan because demos for high profile games are Standard Operating Procedure, and if they refused to do so then funding would be yanked or something similiarly threatening.

So HP ended up releasing what was a preview build because they had no time to create a proper demo, which in my mind has hurt the game's potential sales figures because there have undoubtedly been gamers turned off the retail version by the poor quality of the demo that was released.

This is not to say I am one of them, far from it - I can at least see the potential and have enjoyed the demo despite its technical/balancing issues and I am very much looking forward to the retail release. I'm just interested in what is going on behind the scenes, and since I don't think we'll ever hear anything but a Public Relations press release about whatever complications arose, I thought I'd ask the community what their take on the whole debacle is.

[Mythor]

It was almost certainly a Dreamcatcher decision. Had Heuristic Park been behind the release, they would've tagged it as being the early preview code they gave to gaming websites and magazines, assuming that that is what it is of course.

As you said, Dreamcatcher would've been looking to get the game into the public's minds as the release date nears. Even with the demo release, Dungeon Lords is still not that widely known about?
They really should've refrained from releasing the demo. I suspect that while it probably did win over some fans, a lot of others were turned off instead.

If the game sells poorly, we might see some frustrated developer comments that might reveal what really happened.

[Tenka]

I also am almost certain that what wolf is saying is true, in the past DC have announced release dates and demo's to be released.. and at those times HP had announced nothing, low and behold they got delayed. Whether that was just a bad publicity stunt or impatience on DC's behalf it certainly seems like DC wants to push this game out the door without a second thought to the damage they're doing to the product and its publicity.

I think DC see's us begging for the game and without even thinking about it they want to give us what we want, if they were thinking they would know that the general public is impatient and always want more than they should get.. otherwise THIS happens. Indeed demo's are good advertising material, but NOT ones based on demo's that were never supposed to be released to the public, indeed getting the game out to us quickly is good, but NOT if you cant wait for the game to be polished to a playable state.

It's depressing to see HP have to deal with flak from the general public because their 'Publisher' made the wrong decisions. The LEAST they could have done was label the demo "Alpha" or "Beta"..

[Narserke]

I don't remember exactly were, but I first read about Dungeon Lords on some website or something, saying it was a game by DW Bradley, whom I had never heard off, and that one of the features was that you could click the right mouse button to block with a shield..i don't know or remember if any other details were given, but I do remember I wanted to play the game. So i bookmarked the official site, which back then had a "download the demo" link, which I checked often and was usually disappointed..I was quite surprised when I finally found a download link.

Now i've never downloaded and played many game demos, so I can't really make any kind of comparison to this and other demo in terms of how buggy it is, and to be honest I didn't expect a the game to be perfect, even on release I expect some bugs. Sure a bug free game would be great, but that's just not possible on a computer game..they can take care of as many bugs as possible, the obvious ones, the gamestoppers, and the ones we pointed out with this demo, but there are still going to be bugs because everyones computer is different hardware and software wise.

Whether or not DC forced a buggy demo out the door, well I can't answer that obviously, and any answer I gave would be unfair speculation. Publishers aren't game developers, their job is funding and selling the game, they are the marketing department. They want to get the product out, HP wants to make a good product, thus a conflict will arise. If a demo was "forced out", then it was probalby with the mentality that has been mentioned, something needed to be out, and the idea that there are going to be bugs in any released computer game, if it's a good enough game people will play through the bugs and wait for them to be fixed. Anyone turned off by a game with this much obvious potential because of bugs in a demo, well it's there loss for there impatience.

[Vampire_X]

i dont know but i just hope they fix everything up add the right handed models i keep asking for and ill be happy wonder how long the game is if you do everything in it i think it was 60+ hours cant remember.

[onewolf]

The LEAST they could have done was label the demo "Alpha" or "Beta"..

this is really the clincher for me, it is the biggest fault in whole demo and could have been remedied by changing the ******* filename, a solution so simple as to be absurd. que lastima.

[Tenka]

I don't remember exactly were, but I first read about Dungeon Lords on some website or something, saying it was a game by DW Bradley, whom I had never heard off, and that one of the features was that you could click the right mouse button to block with a shield..i don't know or remember if any other details were given, but I do remember I wanted to play the game. So i bookmarked the official site, which back then had a "download the demo" link, which I checked often and was usually disappointed..I was quite surprised when I finally found a download link.

I'm not sure which site you're talking about, but just to clear things up:

www.dungeonlordsgame.com - The Official HP DL website.
www.dungeonlords.com - The DC website.

Anyone turned off by a game with this much obvious potential because of bugs in a demo, well it's there loss for there impatience.

I'd really like to belive that, unfortunately their impatience that causes them to not buy the game kills the games publicity, if the games publicity dies then its likely that neither HP nor DC will continue to support the game. Which means no patches, no expansions, no sequels .. and the death of DL.

[wolf]

You know what would ensure that this game survives, poor publicity or not? An editor, like the one that came with Morrowind. If DC don't want to support the game any more, let the fans do it. Just reading these forums should give anyone with half a brain the impression that there ARE rabid fans of this game despite the buggy beta, and that if given the tools, those same fans would happily give their time and effort to making a good game even better. I've heard plenty of people say that the original Morrowind was a good game, but it was the fan-created content that made it great.

This being a DW Bradley game makes me think that intellectual property will be more important to the devs and the publisher than allowing the fans to change it to suit their own tastes. I hope I am wrong, but I think we all know the mentality of most companies these days - "It's mine, I made it, I need ALL the credit for it and nobody is going to change a thing about it without a massive legal battle". Again, I hope to be wrong on this but my hopes aren't high.

It just seems sad that if this game performs poorly from a sales perspective, that those of us that like it will lose out. You'd think that any publisher would be interested in extending the longevity of their games.

Will Wright has had some interesting insights about this. Check out the following article on his latest ideas:

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/595/595975p1.html?fromint=1

I couldn't post that as a link as the tags don't work on this board. It''s a long article but well worth the read, it's all about how he believes that smart programs combined with user input are the future, as that minimizes the amount of assets development teams need to create for their games while giving the user a much more personal gaming experience. Yeah, it's not applicable to every genre but it's still interesting.

[wolf]

I took too long to edit the previous post so now I am locked out of it. Obviously the [URL] tags do work on this board... will have to try previewing my message next time.... :o

[onewolf]

You know what would ensure that this game survives, poor publicity or not? An editor, like the one that came with Morrowind.

man that is just so true. so so true. even a mediocre game can be made great with the inclusion of a nice editor, not to mention a virtually infinite extension of replayability.

[Runeblade]

Id love to make maps for Dungeon Lords. :D

[AEROPAIN]

:confused: Thats my picture TUKARAM :confused: you have good taste runeblade.

AEROPAIN...

[Runeblade]

Yes Tukaram. :D

http://img190.echo.cx/img190/609/bladeofdarkness035pw.th.jpg (http://img190.echo.cx/my.php?image=bladeofdarkness035pw.jpg)

[Thalavon]

I usually refraim from posting on the internet as my opinion is usually quite "radical" to most others. But here goes...

I first heard about DL near the beginning of last year and immediately was drawn to it. I had played Wizards and Warriors before and loved it and seeing a game made by the same guy with a Gothic(1/2)ish setup BUT with races and class selection, well they didn't have to say much more to hook me.

Here's where the problems began, obviously from reading posts and paying attention to the DL site(s) for over a year now I'm getting the flow of this.

Obviously Dreamcatcher has got to be the single WORST Public Relations company, BAR NONE, you guys suck hard, for lack of a better phrase (or a worse lude one). I have no idea who runs that Bazooko Circus up there but seriously, get your heads out of your posteriors and fix this mess (though obviously too little too late.) This game has been slated to have been released so many times it's sickening. It was supposed to get released May of LAST year, of course no one knew much at that time so most people highly doubted that and was probably just the first of many of DC's horrid public relations stunts.

****, I've done better PR for this game than DC has, I'm sure a lot of the "fans" have too. I've told friends, showed them demo movies when they first came out, told them about it. But the show just keeps going and still no release. It looked like it was going to get released last year around September-November, but DC/HP etc. never said a **** thing for MONTHS and then "DELAYED" and there was no set date after that point. Then the first of the year comes and BLAM, "Feb!". Then a little later "April!", now it's May.

My guess is the latest delay, which you seem to think is the last one, was done solely because everyone whined on here so hard after this demo, which obviously reflects the game in a very bad fashion. I enjoyed it of course, but I'm sure all the die hard fans did. The biggest problem with your die hard fanbase is that THEY ALONE will not make you a big company or sell lots of copies. I'm sorry but it's the basic truth, you need more people to buy it than just the crazy devoted.

I can bet a good percentage of the people who whined on various website boards were NOT even going to purchase the game to begin with, yet there were probably others who had NEVER read the websites that were eagerly awaiting the game this coming week. I guess with no "Gone Gold" statement, everyone shoulda guessed as much. What I'm irritated at is that you guys fell for the oldest trick in the gaming community webbook, i.e. LISTENED TO PEOPLE so much that it altered your release date. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, REALLY bad Move.

It always sounds SO great and people are praising you here now saying "Oh it'll be so much better!". When in fact considering no one has played an accurate portrayal of the game considering the demo was obviously not an accurate reflection of the game itself, how is anyone to give a judgment on a game where they're playing some old builld that doesn't really relate to the final product at all? More importantly, if it's such a "poor" build compared to the final, why were people's feedback so important that it warranted a delay? Obviously either the Demo WAS close to the final product, or you fell to the old trick like I mentioned above, and for no other reason than what? To appease some idiots that whine and probably still won't buy the game? Nice.

On top of that, you coulda had Guild Wars beat in release and at least took some money from people waiting to play that game, because make no mistake it will sell a LOT of copies compared to DL, that is just a pure fact. I tend to like games like DL more, but the masses LOVE games like Guild Wars.

I guess the question is: Was this about Money? Because if it was, all you did was shoot yourself in the foot.
Was it about making the game better? Because if the demo was such a poor reflection, then you should have seen most of those problems with in-house testing (or perhaps added more beta people, which I signed up for and didn't get chosen, heh irony.)

The point I'm trying to make here, is all (or rather the FEW) Rabid fans you have would play the game even in the demo state, they hardly give two winks what bugs are there, they can deal with them like any true RPG gamer that has played a few computer games. That is where patches come in, unless this is a good indication that there will be almost ZERO patch support for the game.

In fact, this whole setup is reminiscent of Beyond Divinity. I had never played the first but thought I'd give the second a try. The demo sucked real bad and had lots of bugs (for whatever reason), people whined and cried and it was announced the game would get delayed to add better voices and polish the game up to appease the fanbase and eager buyers. I borrowed the game from a friend and all that happened was the game got delayed, I never noticed ANY new voices (maybe the added them a few months down the line I don't know), no improvements just the same **** thing. It was a joke and you know the funny thing? I was going to buy the game because there was nothing else out and I was bored, but guess what...it got pushed back and collided with another game I wanted to get and I never ended up getting the game.

Now I have had DL pre-ordered since last October, paid in full at that, and now you're pulling the same crap once more, and now I hear the price is even getting raised to $50??? So tell me, what is that extra $10 going towards? A last month of desperation bug fixing, which in all reasonability I can't see how much a month can benefit a game considering you still have to send a final copy off sometime right?? Couldn't you have just done that NOW and kept it on a somewhat normal release, and be working on that "first patch" like almost every other company does in the industry? I mean crap, even HL2 was a nightmare launch, how much worse can yours be? Unless of course like I said, you intend never to provide patch support after release, or at best minimal. Of course you could just be charging the extra $10 because it's been so long and DC ordered it because you need to cover the extra production costs, which is quite the possibility at this point.

And after all this yanking around from DC, I have a pretty good idea what's going to happen. They're going to get all mad that DL doesn't make as much money as they "thought" it would and then we'll never see a game like this again, or at least a for a long time. A lot of you are delusional and think this game will get game of the year. Wrong, it may get "game of the year" on some quaint RPG site that actually has normal people, but to the masses games like this mean jack, if it's not Halo 2 or GTA 3 or some other mass marketed basegame, it will get nowhere. It will sell decent amount of copies perhaps, but I mean how much did Gothic 2 sell? How much did even Vampire the Masquerade:Bloodlines sell?? And now look where Troika is now, OUT OF BUSINESS.

[Vampire_X]

im not reading that and i dont think any one else will either ;)

[tbotus]

Firstly, I read it and I agreed and disagreed with quite a few points. One thing I can say I don't agree with is how much difference a month can make. The last month can make a huge difference, in polishing and general bug fixing. However, I too must question their decision to raise the price from 39.99 to 49.99. I think that was foolish at best. Not because it is now 50 bucks, but because it is now 50 bucks where it once was 40. That is a sure-fire way to **** off a lot of people in a short period of time.

I don't fear that HP will go the route of Troika, though all of the delays really are irritating. Impossible deadlines should not be set in the first place. It displays a lack of communication between Developer and Publisher, in my eyes. My one and only hope is that this doesn't cost HP fans or worse yet, my own interest to dwindle due to sheer irritation.

[Runeblade]

They should never set release dates and just say 'when it's done'. Very rare do release dates get met and all they do is make people go into 'crazy' mode. :p

As for the $50 price tag. If it's a cool game it'll be worth it.

As for preorders. I did that only once and it was for Doom 3. It ended up being a fiasco as I got the game the same time as everybody else and I got KoToR free... I didn't want KoToR, I wanted my damned copy when they said I was going to get it, not the next day. But thats anouther story. :p

So what if we can't have Dungeon Lords right now. Since I can't have it yet, I just want a hamburger right now. So until Dungeon Lords gets finished, I'll have a hamburger and play some Morrowind and Doom 3 expansion.....

Moo.

[Vampire_X]

Troika deserved what they got they totaly ruined bloodlines it was horrible not because of the bugs and horrible frame rate but the story and characters clothe useless weapons in the game such a piece of crap the orignal devs from redemption shoulda made it.

Im glad what happend to Troika always act like a clown and think there cool putting there stupid names in the game totaly ruining it thinking there bigshots now look what happens :)

like in Bloodlines you talk to ppl they will say there names "leonard boyarsky" runs the big things etc stupid crap like that.

[one-cool]

For this Post I have to register :D

Thavalon: I agree with most of your points 100%.
Nice to see, somebody catched the point so good.

well.

one ~member of the official german board and part of the official german site.

[tbotus]

I don't argue that the game is worth $50 if it is good. I'm arguing that it is a bad idea to change prices, when so many have pre-ordered at $40 already.

As for Troika, that was their trademark: do it half-*** today, don't fix it tomorrow.

[Tenka]

Thalavon's post, radical indeed..

I agreed with him for the most part, DC's publishing antics have nearly killed DL's publicity and severely wounded its sales. I get the impression that they feel like the'yve put so much funding into the game that they should sell it immediately or they wont make their money back, in doing so they've killed a lot of their potential customers and therefore significantly reduced their own sales.

I personally have more confidence in HP though, I feel they're the victims of this whole ordeal and whilst many came on the board just to complain about the game in general, there were plenty others capable of putting things in an objective view and keep all the bugs and gameplay suggestions in point form. There were a few things I wanted from the 'fixed' version of the game and CHUK has stated them as fixed.. so I'm satisfied.

I think if they hope to make back any of the potential customer's their hope lies in a demo 2, but even then the general public is usually not as patient/open-minded as to try something twice. Many potential customer's (most which didnt even bother posting on the boards) would have tried the demo, said it sucked, and moved on never to come back. It's a sad state of affairs but I imagine that a lot of potential customers are already gone.

[3days]

I dont think that Dreamcatcher has hurt DL's sales at this point. Since DL has had no positive press since it supposed release over a year ago anything from a business standpoint is good press. I believe that DL really has not experienced any of the sort of the press that it will get if it is a solid release. Since my experience is limited to games with a larger budget like Diablo, WOW, Neverwinter Nights I honestly doubt at this rate that the debate happening here has merit.

A good example would be Sacred. I was out of country (US) for over a year and came back and had to purchase Sacred online (how I expect to buy DL). I saw it as a kick butt replacement to my Diablo 2 days but was totally dissapointed after about a few gaming sessions. Since that time I have seem copies appear in every gaming store and even a Walmart for what its worth. I think the Devs of Sacred are great for their persistence but the game sucks IMHO.

But with DL I believe that we will have the same reaction (low initial sales then the inevitable increase due to increased exposure) but with greater results since even with an Alpha Beta I still believe it is the next great game and will rival Diablo and Blizzards success in that regard. The only weakness I see which will be a killer longterm is the lack of a closed server. Those who love multi demand it and unless they offer an expac with that option it will still be successful but not to the exalted madness that a game like Diablo accomplished.

But I stick with my point that DL will be a great game and DC has not hurt the sales (possibly short term) at all and DL will sell and sell big regardless. You could look at it in two ways either that DL will be a great game or the other side is that for RPG fans there has not been a solid multi since the click and hack days of D2 almost 6 years ago.

zacho

[Tenka]

3Days, you bring up a good point.. the game might just sell better after the initial 'lull' on release, we can only hope.

I'm not getting my hopes up for a 'closed' server though, I don't think they have the resources or the expertise to do something like that, if worst comes to worst you'll be better off finding/making a Legit-only guild. Well.. maybe if DL takes off better than expected, perhaps they may have enough resources to make a DL Expansion or DL2 that will include such a feature, but that seems like a rather long-shot.

[wolf]

I still think releasing an editor would ensure this game's survival. I mean if DC or HP can't/won't support it after release, the fans are more than willing to do it...

[Runeblade]

I still think releasing an editor would ensure this game's survival. I mean if DC or HP can't/won't support it after release, the fans are more than willing to do it... That depends on what the editor is like and if they release any info (docs) on how to use it. I hope they do release an editor but I have my doubts that they will.

[araczynski]

i think too many people are missing the point with this game, and/or are trying to make it into something its not.

Or perhaps i'm the one missing the boat completely :)

I've always seen this game as a singleplayer focused rpg. To me, whether it has multiplayer or any editors means absolutely nothing. Once i'm done with the singleplayer story (maybe twice for good measure), and unless i hear anything about any expansions, i'm uninstalling the game and moving on to something else, (guild wars, stronghold2, oblivion, etc, etc,).

I don't think this game will be a success or failure based on any editors or the strengths of its multiplayer capabilities, as i don't believe MOST players hang around a game for months on end.

I loved Sacred for what it was, could care less about any multiplayer it did or didn't have, which i never bothered to try either, i beat it, enjoyed it, uninstalled it. i'll get the underworld expansion, and repeat the process. same with NWN+, morrowind+, etc, etc,.

yeah yeah, i know, everything has to be all about multiplayer these days. i think the practice of really 'getting immersed in' a game's story, and buying a game FOR the story that was crafted are passing, if not mostly gone already.

i guess i just get a little ticked off when people start dooming a game based on parts that i could care absolutely nothing about, while not mentioning a single thing about the parts that i do care about :)

i hope you guys enjoy the multiplayer, honestly. but i hope even more that after release they spend time working on expansions instead ;)

[Runeblade]

What does multiplayer have to do with the editor? I don't multiplay anymore and haven't since Quake II but I still want the editor. The reason I want this game is for the SP. Maybe I didn't understand what you meant. :p

[araczynski]

wolf said releasing an editor "ensure the game's survival". just like others have said this game 'needs' super multiplayer to be successfull, or it needs to be right handed, or it needs to have feature X, or Y, or Z, ad naseum. i don't agree with any of that and think people are trying to copy/paste everything too much and/or assuming that their particular wants are EVERYONE's wants.

its that "my $40 and opinion are going to make or break your company, so you better put in what i want" mentality that's driving me nuts :)

if they have the time/energy to put in an editor after the fact then so be it, hope you really enjoy it, but its hardly going to make or break any game, since the majority of gamers (i believe) don't bother with a game again after they beat it once or twice.

ignore me, i'm just venting :)

[Tenka]

wolf said releasing an editor "ensure the game's survival". just like others have said this game 'needs' super multiplayer to be successfull, or it needs to be right handed, or it needs to have feature X, or Y, or Z, ad naseum. i don't agree with any of that and think people are trying to copy/paste everything too much and/or assuming that their particular wants are EVERYONE's wants.

its that "my $40 and opinion are going to make or break your company, so you better put in what i want" mentality that's driving me nuts :)

if they have the time/energy to put in an editor after the fact then so be it, hope you really enjoy it, but its hardly going to make or break any game, since the majority of gamers (i believe) don't bother with a game again after they beat it once or twice.

ignore me, i'm just venting :)

Me and txa1265 were having this debate a week ago, the people that get more of a kick out of multiplayer arent satisfied with just a story, they want a challenge primarily, the story is a bonus. It seems to be vice-versa with the singleplayer inclined they focus more on the story and arent so fixated on the action.

I guess its the multiplayers that are more needy in terms of game requirements, those that are looking for a nail biting challenge need a tighter game structure and balance than those that are looking for immersion and story. This isnt to say they wont appreciate the story though, but they will spend hours on end hacking and slashing with friends and will probably also play through the game countless times trying to do/find/kill "everything" and pick up bizarre challenge ideas such as 'hardcore'.

Singleplayers and multiplayers take completely different perspective's when playing a game.

[Vampire_X]

i just want the game :p

[wolf]

Araczynski,

All I am saying is that I believe this "demo" fiasco has damaged Dungeon Lords' potential sales figures. This has yet to be proven, so it is nothing more than a personal assumption.

The track record of a game like Morrowind, however, speaks for itself. The core game was great, but its editor is what made it that little bit better, and is largely the reason people are still playing it today. I reserve the right to be wrong about this, but having spoken to tons of Morrowind fans and played a lot of the fan-made content myself, I honestly don't think I am.

DL might end up being a sleeper hit, Heuristic, DWB and Dreamcatcher may end up bathing in cash as a result of its success, and all these concerns might be no more than a flash in the pan. Only time will tell, I guess. All I can say for sure is that when the game comes out, whether the editor/right handed models/miscellaneous fan requests are in or not, I am buying it as I believe the game has a lot of potential. I just think that a lot of gamers have been turned off the game based on the demo.

[araczynski]

wolf: i don't think the demo1 fiasco will hurt them much, IF they release a second demo. i think those that took the time to download the first demo were intersted enough to want to try the second demo (if it comes out), otherwise yeah, no second demo will push off many. will they lose SOME people? yes, regardless.

as for the editor, i don't really see content editors contributing to the bottom line at any developer/publisher, hence, doesn't really affect a game's success or not when one looks at the fact that success is based on sales, not how many/few 'extreme' fans are hanging around for how long. the morrowind players today are a small fraction of their 'normal run' sales, and they're not contributing to bethsoft's coffers anymore (past the initial sale) anymore anyway.

basically, i doubt ANYbody bought Morrowind BECAUSE it had an editor, they bought it because of the singleplayer/story, the editor was a bonus. but i don't think anyone went "wow, can't wait to play morrowind, but what's this? no editor? forget it, i'll go play the sims"

:)

if anything, i think these free editors are just an added aggravation for many of the developers, as they end up providing some type of support for it (on their dime) whether direct or indirect.

anyway, bottom line, i don't care, i want Dungeon Lords, and like you, i prepaid, and don't care whether or not it comes with any editor, or multiplayer, or right handed toons. and by the time they work out all the bugs from multiplayer/any editor, i'll have had my fill of enjoyment and be playing some other game :) (while waiting for info about an expansion)

[Cathail]

The idea of editors is not a bad one, though to be honest I've not seen a lot of player made content that really added significant play time outside of FPS multiplayer.

Two possible exceptions are NWN and Blizzard RTS games. NWN is almost in a class by itself as it was designed around the philosophy of content creation. It has mostly been my kids playing the player made maps for Blizzard RTS games but it does count as extending game life. I specifically mention Blizzard RTS as I've not seen a lot for other RTS games benifit hugely from editors, though admittedly I've not played or followed every one that has ever been made.

As far as Morrowind goes, while a great game IMO, the editor was mostly used by players to "enhance" the existing world in limited ways, not to create new content on any scale. The point is that they made the game more fun at times but didn't really extend the life of the game appreciably.

I'm sure there are a few other exceptions here and there, but editors largely do seem to be more about marketting than real game play extenders.

[Tenka]

As far as Morrowind goes, while a great game IMO, the editor was mostly used by players to "enhance" the existing world in limited ways, not to create new content on any scale. The point is that they made the game more fun at times but didn't really extend the life of the game appreciably.


Whilst a lot of the more 'impressive' mods were simply enhancments to the game, there were a lot of other mods that actually add new dungeons, islands, towns etc.. to the game.

[CraigBee]

Its interesting to me how many people only play single player. I think its great people enjoy single player, because there are many more single player games than multiplayer, so you have a larger selection.

I haven't played a single player game for probably 10 years. I wouldn't even be interested in the game if it didn't have multiplayer. I just enjoy games more when I can play online with my brothers.

Craig

[araczynski]

DL was never developed with MP in mind, or as the main focus, so comparing DL to GW is like comparing PC to MAC, pointless.

i'll be playing both though, for the singleplayer aspects :) each has many things i love.

[Tenka]

DL was never developed with MP in mind, or as the main focus, so comparing DL to GW is like comparing PC to MAC, pointless.

i'll be playing both though, for the singleplayer aspects :) each has many things i love.

Perhaps, but they openly support co-op.. its the key selling point, its basicly Morrowind with Co-op and better action, the 1 thing RPG/Action fans are asking for.

[araczynski]

'support' means very little :) pac-man support multiplayer as well :) the key selling point of DL is the singleplayer story/experience, the key selling point of GW is multiplayer. and neither of them are morrowind with co-op :)

my point was that DL was geared as a great singplayer experience with 'support' for multiplayer, while GW is geared as mostly multiplayer but also provides for a great singleplayer experience if you so choose to play it as such.

anyway, i guess what i'm trying to say is GW and DL aren't competing with each other for our money, as they're 2 different games in my opinion.

unlike say WoW or EQ2. GW is going to compete more with WoW and EQ2 then anything, and even then, its still not a direct confrontation as they're rather different in gameplay mechanics and should attract a slightly different crowd, even though there will always be overlap of course.

i love both games equally, to me neither is better then the other because they're both too different to be compared. i hope both are successfull.

[Tenka]

'support' means very little :) pac-man support multiplayer as well :) the key selling point of DL is the singleplayer story/experience, the key selling point of GW is multiplayer. and neither of them are morrowind with co-op :)

my point was that DL was geared as a great singplayer experience with 'support' for multiplayer, while GW is geared as mostly multiplayer but also provides for a great singleplayer experience if you so choose to play it as such.

anyway, i guess what i'm trying to say is GW and DL aren't competing with each other for our money, as they're 2 different games in my opinion.

unlike say WoW or EQ2. GW is going to compete more with WoW and EQ2 then anything, and even then, its still not a direct confrontation as they're rather different in gameplay mechanics and should attract a slightly different crowd, even though there will always be overlap of course.

i love both games equally, to me neither is better then the other because they're both too different to be compared. i hope both are successfull.

Fair enough..

Although DL is Morrowind with co-op, and perhaps more or less in some other areas..

Whilst the games are different, to people who seek multiplayer GW and DL are competing. I've said this before, DL offers a fairly unique co-op mode reminiscent of the days of DooM, Duke3D and Quake, the ways the levels/dungeons are set out and the secrets they contain is very similar in style. Multiplayers looking for a hot Co-op action that just about every single FPS is sorely lacking will buy DL in an instant, there just happens to be a bonus RPG to it..

[phalzyr]

Tenka: Have you played morrowind much? DL?

I really don't see much similarities. I guess camera angle if you play MW third person full out. The fighting style is more like other games than MW, I hated MW meele combat, but since I like playing mages more that was ok. DL's meele I thought was pretty neat(don't flame me :) ), though I'll mostly play mage anyway. At a quick glance it might look like MW but actually playing it for more than a minute you'll notice a big difference.

[Tenka]

Tenka: Have you played morrowind much? DL?

I really don't see much similarities. I guess camera angle if you play MW third person full out. The fighting style is more like other games than MW, I hated MW meele combat, but since I like playing mages more that was ok. DL's meele I thought was pretty neat(don't flame me :) ), though I'll mostly play mage anyway. At a quick glance it might look like MW but actually playing it for more than a minute you'll notice a big difference.

Ok, a DL vs Morrowind Comparison:

Things in common:

- Reasonably large open-ended world.
- Plenty of dungeons hidden throughout.
- 'Go-anywhere do-[almost]anything'
- Hundereds of Interactive NPC's.
- Real-time combat system.
- Deep story.
- Similar character customization depth. - Generic skills such as light/med/heavy wep/armor etc, blocking, bartering, stealth, lockpicking etc.
- Immersive environment.
- Camping.

Places where DL improves in comparison:

- Multiplayer.
- Combat.
- Character progression and customization. - Instead of jumping up and down for hours on end, play the game and earn experience then 'choose' what you want to increase.
- NPC depth and immersiveness. - NPC's generally 'feel' more real, no generic responses and better all round dialogue.
- Lock picking/Disarming.
- A 'playable' 3rd Person View.

Places where DL lacks in comparison:

- Theivery and stealth. - Although its yet to be seen, but they havent mention much about it.
- Do 'anything' - Cant kill innocents or run around pillaging everything, probably due to the age rating.
- Official game editor and moddability.
- Non-linearity and the ability to manipulate the world in general.
- No 1st person view.

Its reasonably evident that DL easily compares to Morrowind.

[Tenka]

This game has a long way to go before it can be compared to Morrowind. It's buggier than Daggerfall was.

What do bugs have to do with it? I'm only talking about gameplay, concept and design.. and in the long run, thats all that matters.

Not to mention that Morrowind was buggier than an ants nest, in fact that could be another thing that DL and Morrowind have in common...

[Boog7]

Heh, must be old age setting in. Or maybe its the fact that I play a couple games a month, every genre,,rpg's, rts's, sports, action, you name it. Except for stuff like the sims, I just find the idea of playing a game around relationships a bit wierd.
Anyways I see you guys hashing out old games like Daggerfall, Gothic and Morrowind and while I know I've played them,,I can't pull out any fond memories. I will say that some of the coolest things I've enjoyed in other games are stories with imbedded movie clips, difficult but logical puzzles, beasties that don't only roar,,they shake the earth as they come at you and games rich with ambient sound (ie the haunted mansion in Vampires Blood Masquerade), think I changed my undies twice for that one.

Welp,,,time for my nap......

[txa1265]

games rich with ambient sound (ie the haunted mansion in Vampires Blood Masquerade), think I changed my undies twice for that one.I love that part ... just replayed some of it again a week or so ago ...

Did you ever play Thief Deadly Shadows? The Asylum section is even more haunting ... between those two Doom 3 was a yawn-fest ;)

Mike

[Boog7]

Nope never played the thief games. Are they any good'?

[Vampire_X]

i didnt like them they were really boring if you like sneaking around and have no fighting skills at all and few hits your dead then you might like it i dont like stealth i just tried em out im the warrior not the thief :p

[BullGod]

Ok, a DL vs Morrowind Comparison:

Things in common:

[Edit to save space..no disrespect] - And I agree with all of it.

Its reasonably evident that DL easily compares to Morrowind.


I think that is a great comparison. I still play Morrowind, 3 years later, and I am still using my original character and learning new things. Although, I do like to take my time. Heck, I stretched it for 3 years so far :-) I bet I can get that much out of Dungeon Lords to! (I hope)


I have played the Thief series as well, and it was good, but just not up my alley.

[Vampire_X]

i cant play morrowind because it constantly crashes ive played it for maybe 7 hours total cause i got fed up with the crashign , its a very over rated game but it was something to do when i was bored but the crashing was just to much and tons of ppl had the same probs patching did nothing.

[BullGod]

I had problems as well, however, I liked it enough to find some solutions. Just love the story (which is like a complete novel) and almost everything about it.

That doesn't make it better or worse then DungeonLords of course. It is just my onion. To this day I can loose myself in Morrowind for hours at a time, and I think even after DL is out, I will be able to spend time playing MW.

[Vampire_X]

thing that got me so mad is i like looting stuff taking tons of stuff then selling it for money i'd get selling all these items and i have saved up so much money then all of a sudden piece of crap would crash and then all that looting was all gone.

Lets hope oblivion doesnt crash like this or im gonna laugh at them.

[BullGod]

In defense of your view and experiences of Morrowind, I have been 'conditioned' by playing to save fast, save hard, and save often. I even have an archive of save games from every day I have played. When I am done for a day, I back up the journal.htm, the Saves Directory, and my personal MWNotes.txt file. I have 4.5 gigs of saves. Soon I will have to go to a second DVD :-) Just so I don't loose then in the event of a crash.

[txa1265]

Nope never played the thief games. Are they any good'?
I actually somewhat agree with Vampire_X, and had a really hard time with Thief 1 when I got it for a gift - I was a major FPS-head back then .... but last year Thief Deadly Shadows hit me just right, it was great fun lurking in the shadows, as I am normally never a Thief in RPG's, and have never once used 'hide' or 'move silently' in a RPG.

Mike

[phalzyr]

Thief is why I stopped using surround sound speakers....I was so jumpy after playing that :) I played the first one all the way through a couple times even though it wasn't my cup of tea. Thief 2 was even better graphic wise but seemed to be just the same thing as one so my already strectched interested waned and I didn't get into it much.... If you love stealth and sneaking up on people (hardly any real fighting just one whack from behind and they are down) then it is a great game for you if not....

[txa1265]

If you love stealth and sneaking up on people (hardly any real fighting just one whack from behind and they are down) then it is a great game for you if not....

I played Thief Deadly Shadows at night, in the dark, using headphones ... scares the heck out of you at times ... but that awareness is essential. I played it like a RPG, even though it isn't - I really immersed into a different role than I ever played in a game (well, other than in Thief 1). But then I tried playing a rogue in other games ... still not for me, I'll take the Paladin or Sorcerer role ...

Mike