Being a Pure Mage

[Narserke]

It's come up in several threads that being a pure mage might be near in possible, especially if you can't rest in dungeons. In fact, some wish to become so pure as to only focus in one school of magic, such as arcane. I understand this, but I also think they, the devs, assume pure magic to be all the mage skills maybe? just as shield, parry, light weapons and so on are combat skills. A warrior couldn't survive being a pure warrior just taking light weapons. So for the same reason I don't think a caster can take just arcane and be effective, they are probably expected to take at least one other, perhaps nether magic to summon some allies in a pinch instead of relying on other class skills.

Now I plan to try a multitude of classes, and a caster class will be one of them. So I will take arcane, nether, and maybe celestial and rune magic. I will probably also take the general skills and some thief skills. This would still leave me basically a caster with a few other talents, but it wouldn't really be pure in the truest since. You can go without thief skills unless you are willing to leave behind chest and locked rooms. It would be nice if mages could summon familars, magic creatures seperate from those summoned by nether magic, creatures that stayed longer, and fought for you, creatures that leveled as long as you put more points into a familar skill. Smart creatures that you could order when and who to attack. If we had that, casters would probably not need nether magic, but still celestial and rune, for healing and protection. With rune magic, you probably wouldn't need light armor and a shield, but it would still be better then relying on runes and their charges.

What's everyone else's thoughts on being a pure mage? Is it possible, and how would you do it? How about those that have no problem with taking some other skills, which is better? What would you recommend, skills wise, that would allow a caster to remain pure versus cross-class.

[Mythor]

I have a feeling that trying to be "pure" mage at the start might be almost impossible. At that early point you're not going to have the spellbooks for arcane, celestial stones, assorted ingredients for nether magic or enough of the assorted runes. Whilst you're in areas where you can rest regularly without interruption it will probably be okay. But I doubt we're going to get the big Arcane area effect "nuke" spells at the start? So you're going to be relying on the lower end spells. And they can't give you bunches of books (for example) at the start I wouldn't think or by the middle of the game you'd probably have hundreds of the low end magic spells, which doesn't seem to be what they're aiming for.

I definitely think mages are going to want at least some low level thieving skills, unless there's a magical method of opening chests. They're not going to want to invest the points in Strength (or what have you) in order to "Bash" chests open, so that's their only real choice.
I suspect that a few points in whatever skill governs mage type weapons will be useful. Staves and such. Because you're probably not going to want to waste a spell on a bat, but you also don't want it chasing you all the time.

It doesn't seem like a "pure" mage of just one of the magic disciplines will be practical, except in multiplayer where weaknesses can be compensated by another character. I just hope it's not too much tilted towards requiring balanced characters, because I did think the idea was for it to be possible to specialise in one area but still be able to "dabble" in others.

Still no "Gold!" announcement I guess? :(

[Narserke]

I agree. It just isn't realistic to just say focus in arcane magic, even with the starting equipment. It's not really a problem for me, but I thought the issue could use some discussion. A familar would really help, but I guess that's the point of nether magic. How long does a summoned ally last anyway? If it's until they die, then you could put poitns in nether and then summon a bunch of undead guys to tank and then resummon them after enough of them die..and doing that might mean you wouldn't have to have points in the melee skills..but defense is just smart..i don't think there is a rule that says you can't be a pure mage unless you don't wear any armor..since there is no casting penalty for wearing armor..not that i know of anyway.

[Cathail]

In the demo my son played with summoned nether critters some. They did seem to stay until destroyed but they had a bad habit of getting hung on up things especially when climbing ladders and such. I wouldn't swear to this but they did seem a bit stronger as he levelled as well, but then that could just be me coloring reality with my expectations :).

On the familiar, for a "pure" arcane mage to have one wouldn't necessarily overlap with nether magic. In nether, when you summon skellies, you get three and they run up and tank for you but when they are gone you can just summon more. With nether magic you can also summon more than one type of creature at a time, for instance rats and skellies though this may well change in the final game.

Some ways of differentiating would be to have the "classic" penalty of becoming weakened somehow when loosing an arcane familiar, only allowing one familiar to be "bound" at a time, and requiring significant effort to "bind" a new familiar. Also arcane familiars aren't always necessarily tanks for the wizard in literature where nether summoned creatures are largely.

[chamr]

My guess is that the developers just haven't designed the game with the intention of being "pure". That's not to say it's not possible, it just means that they haven't made it a requirement of their design that you be able to focus on a single "school" and be able to succeed. My guess is based on going off the starting classes. If you notice what CHUK22 said in one of his posts, Adepts will have discounts on Rune and Celestial while Mages will have discounts on Arcane and Nether. What this leads me to believe is that they're thinking that their two base caster types will need two schools working together to be successful. Not sure how specialization will play out as you begin to add to your base class, but the point is that it would seem that going just one school isn't really what they had in mind. Doesn't mean you can't try. :)

[txa1265]

If you ever tried to solo NWN as a 'pure mage', you will find yourself in quite a predicament early on ... you *need* something to back up the few measly spells you have at those low levels before becoming a walking artillery platform (NWN: HotU as an Epic Sorcerer ... on those frozen wastes taking our 30 or 40 enemies at a time ...)

So you may need to be a bit of a 'battlemage' early on to survive, but then focus on more pure mage stuff as you progress.

Mike

[Narserke]

If you ever tried to solo NWN as a 'pure mage', you will find yourself in quite a predicament early on ... you *need* something to back up the few measly spells you have at those low levels before becoming a walking artillery platform (NWN: HotU as an Epic Sorcerer ... on those frozen wastes taking our 30 or 40 enemies at a time ...)

So you may need to be a bit of a 'battlemage' early on to survive, but then focus on more pure mage stuff as you progress.

Mike

i haven't soloed a mage, i am not that daring, but i have and am playing one, that gnome is a freaking powerhouse..but so is Valen, so we rush to see who kills first:)

[Mythor]

You could get hirelings in NWN though, as well as rods imbued with spells. Neither of those meant you had to pick up an actual weapon and engage in melee yourself. :)
Noone's saying it should be easy at the start as a "pure" mage class, but it should be viable if that's what you want to do.

[Narserke]

well what should be done to make it viable...i would say and guess the answer is making it possible to rest in dungeons..but they must have a reason not to allow that..fear of abuse, fear that everytime a mage gets in a fight, they will run back to the camp fire? maybe, or maybe just for the sake of challenge.

what would be really cool, and maybe original, is a firebuilding skill or something, and the ability to buy a tend from a merchant..your skill in fire building would allow you to build a bigger fire to a point depending on your skill, or don't make it a skill, just something that you can do..and then find ways to set up traps or wards around your campsite so you can lessen the chance of being attacked.

baldur's gate 1 let you rest anywhere outside, but it was very likely you would be attacked, especially if you were wounded..baldur's gate 2 made it easier..if i remember correctly, and then nwn honestly made it ridiculously easy, perhaps in an attempt to attract new players..but it was two easy, and i admit that i abused it when i first started playing..now it's impossible to rest in the academy until all goblins are killed..so you have to do what they want you to do, don't go cast crazy, but at least in neverwinter, my panther Kirara was there to take out goblins so i wouldn't need to cast as much, which is probably what they want you to do with nether, summon stuff and let them tank so you want have to waste spells as much..which brings up an interesting point, do you buy nether recipies, stumble upon them by randomly mixing stuff, or do they drop like spell books and crystals. i am guessing that with enough skill points, one could summon a war troll..and that would be one **** of a pet:)

[Mythor]

Some form of skill/spell/item that decreases the chance of your resting being interrupted would be a good solution. Perhaps even all three, to allow each class to deal with it using appropriate options.
Warriors could train themselves to sleep lightly, gaining the recuperation bonuses, but also being able to wake up and make some noise to scare off creatures, then nod straight back off again.
Mages of the various types could set up magical wards around the campsite to kill/deter wandering monsters.
Thieves could have assorted traps and tripwires they could plant whilst resting.

Each skill, at low levels, would only deter very low level critters. Higher level bad things would just blunder on through to the camp. So there'd be incentive to drop some points in the skill, to avoid having to wake up just to kill a couple of rats... But it would still be a dangerous proposition in a dungeon, where challenging monsters might spawn as well.

Just an idea, suspect it's probably too late now. :)

[Narserke]

Well considering that it's becoming very unlikely they will make the release, maybe it's not to late, but it would be a new system, and I think very original, where as other games just have a button, you get options about resting..so you could rest anywhere, but without skill points, it would be dangerous.

[Mythor]

Star Wars Galaxies (as an example) does have a camping system in place with various levels of camps available, higher level ones providing more features. Higher level ones are also supposed to deter creatures from entering the camp but they, uh, don't. ;)

[Narserke]

well now that would help and i would think wouldn't be something that people could abuse, especially if it required a skill point or two

[txa1265]

Camping is one of those interesting things ... I was playing a solo Paladin (still working through Chapter 2) and found I hardly ever rested ... very little need to. But as a mage, you are *constantly* resting, especially early on, and especially as a solo - you cast a couple of magic missles and you're done ...

... it reminds me of the scene in Throne of Bhaal where you meet and free the novice adventurers ... :D

Mike