Adding more depth for DungeonLords

[NTJedi]

Greetings Everyone,


Here are some ideas for adding more depth/variables into the game. Please add any of your own ideas as well. Encounters with enemies should have more variations than just fighting... I have listed some ideas below.


1) Gamers encounter one or more sleeping enemies and can try to sneak past or pursue a battle.

2) Gamers encounter a large ambush of elite thieves and must choose to pay their fee of gold, fight or run.

3) Gamers encounter a powerful entity or creature and must befriend/serve it, risk a difficult battle or trick it into fighting another powerful entity or creature.

4) Gamers encounter a town guard which refuses to allow any conversations with prisoners sentenced for execution yet it's needed for one of the quests... here the gamer must choose to try bribing the guard, fight the guard(risking reputation), or drop the quest.

5) Gamers meet a corrupt king which has imprisoned and plans to torture some of the nearby farmers for not paying enough taxes. The gamer has a choice to either free them and risk getting caught and banned from using the castles shops or ignore the wrongful actions of the king for continued use of the castle shops.

[phalzyr]

How do you know DL does not do this? Demo was just a very very small area, and a begginner area to boot. Depth isn't really put into a beginner dungeon to give you time to get used to controls and such before any big decisions are made.

Seeing as the AI ability is there (we were lured into a trap) I hope they have included more than just hack and slash. I'm also hoping the conversation isn't as stale as the first two NPCs. Their convo did the job those NPCs were designed for, but I hope to have choices in dialog later... We'll see in a month... Don't complain about the game's depth until you've actually played the game...

[ByblosHex]

He hasnt complained about the games depth, you are complaining about his suggestions!

Nice suggestions and they all sound nice to me and I hope things like that ARE in the game, except the whole turtured farmers thing.... enough stuff like that in reality.

[Aks K]

Good suggestions.

The first one could be really nice i.e. instead of monsters allways just waiting for you they eat, sleep, wander around and other.

I would like to see the conversation with a np more complex. As the conversation in the demo is i.e. the player saying only a single word seems lame to me - though I am sure that will change.

Also the potential of the conversation should also increase with increasing intellect of the character (or in a few cases decrease!). The np should have a prejudice of the player which will determine the particulary np's attitute. The attitute could chance during the conversation or be improved by doing a quest for the np, as you, NTJedi, stated in 4). This will create a sense of unique feeling when playing the game.

Aks K

[NTJedi]

How do you know DL does not do this? ............

Seeing as the AI ability is there (we were lured into a trap) I hope they have included more than just hack and slash. I'm also hoping the conversation isn't as stale as the first two NPCs...... We'll see in a month... Don't complain about the game's depth until you've actually played the game...

I wasn't complaining... merely suggesting ideas for more depth based on what I've seen so far. Heck the game might even have other surprise features like a map editor... probably not but there's a small chance !!



Nice suggestions and they all sound nice to me and I hope things like that ARE in the game, except the whole turtured farmers thing.... enough stuff like that in reality.

Hopefully we'll see some of these and maybe others.
I listed the tortured farmers idea since I've heard about bad events on the news and have always wished I could have been there to make a difference.




The first one could be really nice i.e. instead of monsters allways just waiting for you they eat, sleep, wander around and other.

I would like to see the conversation with a np more complex. As the conversation in the demo is i.e. the player saying only a single word seems lame to me - though I am sure that will change.

Also the potential of the conversation should also increase with increasing intellect of the character (or in a few cases decrease!). The np should have a prejudice of the player which will determine the particulary np's attitute. The attitute could chance during the conversation or be improved by doing a quest for the np, as you, NTJedi, stated in 4). This will create a sense of unique feeling when playing the game.

Yes I definitely like the eat, sleep, patrol, wander suggestion. Ideally some monsters should even fight each other such as a bear against a zombie. In the demo the undead and wolves fight side by side... I wouldn't expect this to be normal unless a vampire was hiding in the background and controlling the wolves.
I also believe intelligence should play a role for conversations. The developers have a little time... maybe some of these ideas will be added.

[Aks K]

Ideally some monsters should even fight each other such as a bear against a zombie. In the demo the undead and wolves fight side by side... I wouldn't expect this to be normal unless a vampire was hiding in the background and controlling the wolves.

Totally agree. I didnt write fight, because I first thought of fight as fighting to death. I would like to see (as you suggested) fighting being as an exchange of a few punches prehaps after some taunting. The wounded monsters should very slowly regenerate health. You could choose to engage the monsters during their fight or after.

Aks K

[Cathail]

Yes I definitely like the eat, sleep, patrol, wander suggestion. Ideally some monsters should even fight each other such as a bear against a zombie. In the demo the undead and wolves fight side by side... I wouldn't expect this to be normal unless a vampire was hiding in the background and controlling the wolves.

I like the idea of some creatures attacking each other as well, though it would have to make sense. I've only seen this in a handful of games, but it has at least for me made things seem more "life like". Gets a bit old having the whole world hate only the player.

[phalzyr]

OHHHH UM Sorry I thought you were complaining my bad :o. I hope they don't need fan suggestions for depth though or else we are going to be disappointed.... And it is a bit late to add depth.... I hope they have plenty of interesting quests, that it doesn't become like Sacred or Diablo 2 where you're only interested in EXP and items...

[araczynski]

personally i just hope they don't cap levels or make it so that at some point no creature will give you any experience, that's always bothered me about games.

on a somewhat different tangient, anyone remember Knights Of Legend from Origin (i think) back in the late 80's? (I think).

That is one game that i've never been able to get out of my mind in terms of a memorable game/experience, i hope dungeon lords has that 'something' that puts it up there on a pedestal next to it. i keep wishing someone would redo that whole game in more modern engine :)

[phalzyr]

Yep that is what bothered me most about sacred (other than bugs the patches created). Once you get a certain level the amount of exp gained by monsters compared to waht you need is ridikulus. Even in the second highest difficulty, which by their multiplayer standard I shouldn't even be in yet since I'm so low a level, I had to kill infinate creatures just to gain one level and gaining only one level hardly does anything in that game, 5 maybe but one with all that effort... That is why I stopped playing it. It was too geared towards a young kid that had nothing to do but play all day. I work for a living so don't have that kind of time to waiste with repetitive monster slaying that gains me almost nothing.

That is one thing about demo I loved, it isn't so much about gaining levels but gaining exp to spend on skills, or getting items to make youself better. I just hope they don't up it too much so gaining exp later means little because it cost so so much to level up a skill....Maybe the difficulty you choose will have something to do with that.... I can see high level requirements but it shouldn't take me hours to gain one level when I'm a low level char....

[Cathail]

Yep that is what bothered me most about sacred (other than bugs the patches created). Once you get a certain level the amount of exp gained by monsters compared to waht you need is ridikulus. Even in the second highest difficulty, which by their multiplayer standard I shouldn't even be in yet since I'm so low a level, I had to kill infinate creatures just to gain one level and gaining only one level hardly does anything in that game, 5 maybe but one with all that effort... That is why I stopped playing it. It was too geared towards a young kid that had nothing to do but play all day. I work for a living so don't have that kind of time to waiste with repetitive monster slaying that gains me almost nothing.

This, like so many things, is opinion. I would contend that in many games today, if not almost all, progression is too fast. The sense of accomplishment is greatly diminished for me. On the other hand, acheivement of goals such as story progression can more than make up for this (yes, I had to insert a positive here ;) ).

I've played a number of games which levelled far slower in low levels than Sacred does at higher levels. I remember spending a a total of roughly 40 to 50 hours to get from level 15 to 16 in one game. Personally I enjoyed this quite a lot, there was more to look forward to and the life of the game was much longer.

I don't really want just repetative monster slaying for endless hours to be the means of progression. I want other things within the game to give the monster slaying some purpose beyond just character progression. There really needs to be a balance between progression of character and progression of story for the game to be enjoyable for me.

As for having a job and a life, I do as well, in fact I have four kids that eat away much of my time.

[chamr]

I think what phalzyr is saying is he didn't want low level progression to be so slow, especially when gaining a level didn't mean that much.

This taps into a concern of mine that I hope DL lands more in the old school camp than the D2 camp. Don't get me wrong, I like D2, but I think too many games have gone the way of power leveling and too much of the game being focused on having to kill tons and tons and tons of monsters with relentless arcade game like attacks and spells.

I'd love to see DL swing a litte more toward making battles more significant by having fewer of them, having the bigger more important ones be the only common source of treasure chests and having quest rewards include good chunks of experience, like DD. This would also fit well with the limited spell charge system and make it work within the framework of the game.

Slower leveling would be great as long as gaining a level actually means something. In the demo, it definitely seemed to me that adding points to skills and attributes had a clear effect. I just thought it was at too fast a rate. I like to have something to work for that's meaningful. When it comes too fast, it's not as satisying, imo.

[araczynski]

personally i was referring to being locked to a max level (like typical mmorpgs), where once you get that top level you can't progress in anything. also that if you're lvl(X) that you don't get any xp for killing something lvl(X-Y)

I wasn't making any comments on the speed of progression.

[txa1265]

personally i was referring to being locked to a max level (like typical mmorpgs), where once you get that top level you can't progress in anything.Like in KotOR, which has you level too quickly (easy to be at least level 8 leaving Taris with a level 20 cap).


also that if you're lvl(X) that you don't get any xp for killing something lvl(X-Y) In NWN, I'm in Chapter 2, in Charwood, getting 4XP for killing skeletons ... how satisfying is THAT?!?

Mike

[chamr]

personally i was referring to being locked to a max level (like typical mmorpgs), where once you get that top level you can't progress in anything. also that if you're lvl(X) that you don't get any xp for killing something lvl(X-Y)

I wasn't making any comments on the speed of progression.

My reply was @Cathail.

As for not getting any XP for things that are significantly lower than you in level, I have no prob with that. What I do have a prob with is having to fight through tons of them. It would be great if DL does a level check before spawning. If the monster that's going to spawn is X number of levels below you, don't bother.

[araczynski]

I think having low level mobs spawning on you is good because it gives you that sense of progress/accomplishment in your character, in that you've gotten more powerful, otherwise if all mobs are around your level you always feel like you're not making any progress cuz everything is always at the same difficulty.

i would love to get swarmed by a 100 rats when i'm a high level, then i could proceed to swing my weapon and watch them fly, exploding like red water baloons against walls/trees :)

of course that would be the 'extra gore' checkmark in the options screen...

[Cathail]

i would love to get swarmed by a 100 rats when i'm a high level, then i could proceed to swing my weapon and watch them fly, exploding like red water baloons against walls/trees :)

That is certainly fun every now and then, but I'd at least want it to be a relatively rare occurance.


I think what phalzyr is saying is he didn't want low level progression to be so slow, especially when gaining a level didn't mean that much.

This taps into a concern of mine that I hope DL lands more in the old school camp than the D2 camp. Don't get me wrong, I like D2, but I think too many games have gone the way of power leveling and too much of the game being focused on having to kill tons and tons and tons of monsters with relentless arcade game like attacks and spells.

I'd love to see DL swing a litte more toward making battles more significant by having fewer of them, having the bigger more important ones be the only common source of treasure chests and having quest rewards include good chunks of experience, like DD. This would also fit well with the limited spell charge system and make it work within the framework of the game.

Slower leveling would be great as long as gaining a level actually means something. In the demo, it definitely seemed to me that adding points to skills and attributes had a clear effect. I just thought it was at too fast a rate. I like to have something to work for that's meaningful. When it comes too fast, it's not as satisying, imo.

Understand, I was just replying to one aspect of the original comment. The idea you present here is basically what I was trying to get at but from a better perspective.

[phalzyr]

:) Yep I have a hard time making my meaning clear sometimes. I don't mind slow progression as long as there is soemthing to fill the void and a level means something. In Sacred once you been through it once it just becomes a monster hunt for little purpose other than progression. I often find it take 10 or more levels gained before I find a better weapon/armor in that game. That is a lot of monster slaying...

If you must know I did think the DL demo progression was a tad fast, we barely scratched the surface of the game and I gained many levels. Though this might of been due to it being a demo area with a lot tougher/more exp giving monsters than normal, or that they didn't have the balancing done at that point.

There are just way too many games I've played that putting your valiable( very limited) point in a skill/attribute did very little. I spent my one allowed point this level in endurance and... Wuppie I gained 4 hit points now I have 304 YEAH!!!! :D Get an extra level in a CA (Sacred Combat art) and now the effect lasts 2 seconds longer... I'd rather have a lot less CA drop and mean way more... OK now I'm rambling...

[Cathail]

:) Yep I have a hard time making my meaning clear sometimes. I don't mind slow progression as long as there is soemthing to fill the void and a level means something. In Sacred once you been through it once it just becomes a monster hunt for little purpose other than progression. I often find it take 10 or more levels gained before I find a better weapon/armor in that game. That is a lot of monster slaying...

If you must know I did think the DL demo progression was a tad fast, we barely scratched the surface of the game and I gained many levels. Though this might of been due to it being a demo area with a lot tougher/more exp giving monsters than normal, or that they didn't have the balancing done at that point.

There are just way too many games I've played that putting your valiable( very limited) point in a skill/attribute did very little. I spent my one allowed point this level in endurance and... Wuppie I gained 4 hit points now I have 304 YEAH!!!! :D Get an extra level in a CA (Sacred Combat art) and now the effect lasts 2 seconds longer... I'd rather have a lot less CA drop and mean way more... OK now I'm rambling...

Completely agreed. Repeating the same game to get more play out of the same dev time is a rather disappointing thing that diablo brought to the market and several others have followed. I don't see DL doing this fortunately though there is definitely other was to make a monster killing treadmill, I'm with you on hoping DL doesn't turn into that.

You think 2 seconds longer on a CA is bad, at 100+ some only get a bonus per three or so levels of the CA! That is painfully little return for investment.

And don't mind the rambling, this is a more interesting discussion than some ;).

[phalzyr]

:) then I'll ramble on

Morrowind had a nice style to it where EXP meant little to your skill/ability to use weapons/armor/magic. Though it sadly let you buy those levels so gaining them didn't seem as rewarding. And gaining a level in the skills didn't really have as much reward (again keep in mind I play mostly mage), gaining a level in destruction and you could only add a few points of damage to a spell and keep same cast success chance.

I loved daggerfall (I got it after all patches), but Morrowind just totally lost me litterally. Having a large environment totally open is cool and all but when you are told to find john doe in the middle of a very large town having hundreds of NPCs none of which will point you in the right direction.... I always stopped my character at the same main quest in that game. hopefully DL (I saw a post saying it is large like MW) has a little bit better directions to find next quest giver, Instead of "he lives in the largest town somewhere"

In games like MW where your always soloing being a mage is usually hard and in most games immpossible. I know that is realistic to D&D standards, but I love soloing a mage :( I don't care about realism.

[Cathail]

Agree on MW, it was sometimes hard to find quest npcs. There were even a couple out in the middle of nowhere that you get sent off to find. I got Daggerfall nearly at release time, never did really get that far in the main quest. Loved the game but fell through too many floors, even after the last public patch.

I agree also on the mage thing, though one of the difficulties is trying to balance various aspects. There's the mage vs other classes sure, but it's not really that simple. It's more like beginning mage vs beginning other, mid-level mage vs mid-level other, and high level mage vs high level other.

There's also trying to balance expectations of progression for mage. In most games with pure mage, they typically end up being overpowerful by high level as it is, and often even at mid-level. The other extreme touches on the lack of feeling of reward in another thread, if they don't become more capable the sense of progression is diminished.

Not to say it can't be done, but balancing warrior is a bit easier.

[wolf]

Having read so many forum posts lately about good RPGs and hearing a lot of good things about Gothic, I finally picked it up and started playing this last Wednesday. Just reading what you guys are talking about with regards to slow levelling, feeling like you're part of a living world where fights have a little more meaning than simply killing whatever the game throws at you, makes me want to recommend this game to anyone that will listen.

Granted, I've only played for 15 hours or so, but so far there are three settlements/factions, each with their own distinct way of doing things, the world is populated by monsters that actually make sense, ie they wander around the landscape eating and sleeping like normal animals in areas well suited to them, you can harvest skins, furs, teeth and claws from them if you are properly trained to do so, each faction demands loyalty be proven before they accept you as one of their own... not to mention that skills are hard come by, levels are few and far between and so far I've had to make agonizing decisions as to whether I want to specialise in melee or distance combat or pump my main stats instead. The list of things that make this game so amazing goes on and on... thank God it's not only Americans that make role-playing games.

I have my doubts as to whether DL will have this kind of depth, but from the demo I guess it will have its own brand of depth more specifically related to how you develop your character than the world itself. Whatever the case, I am still buying it the second it hits shelves, along with Gothic II and then III when it comes out later this year... I can't believe I missed such an awesome RPG series!

If you haven't played Gothic yet, do yourself a favour and pick it up asap, give the control scheme a try before you give up on it because it grows on you and becomes much easier to handle as you spend more time with it (and even makes sense eventually!), and it will prove itself to be one of the most enjoyable RPG's you've ever played.

[caz]

agreed gothic is a awesome game!

I had also missed it. Played through GII half a year ago.

[Vampire_X]

gothic is simply one of the best rpg's ever made it takes awile to get use too and get into it but once you give it a chance you'll end up loving it (i did)

Ive played all those other rpgs morrowind , neverwinter nights etc there just plain crap honestly how can any one like never winter nights that game is garbage now besides the very ugly and bland graphics the controls are horrible its just a boring mess.

[txa1265]

gothic is simply one of the best rpg's ever made it takes awile to get use too and get into it but once you give it a chance you'll end up loving it (i did)I agree - I played Gothic II before Gothic, and that didn't make the controls any easier to adjust to ... but it is a worthwhile investment.

Ive played all those other rpgs morrowind , neverwinter nights etc there just plain crap honestly how can any one like never winter nights that game is garbage now besides the very ugly and bland graphics the controls are horrible its just a boring mess.
I wish you were more direct, I always read your posts and end up wondering how you *really* feel about things ... ;)

Personally I like *most* RPG's, but I've never been enamored with Morrowind, but that is just me ... and I do love NWN.

Mike

[wolf]

I've sunk *many* hours into that game. Weird thing is, I've reached the cave where you get told you're the Nerevarine and talk to the ghosts of people that came before you TWICE now, and both times, shortly after getting there with my uber powerful character that can leap over buildings and smack down anything that comes his way, I format my PC and lose my savedgames.

What's weird about that is I've read on another forum I frequent (avault) that other people have had the same experience. Even stranger is that I normally back my savedgames up to a completely separate hard drive when I reinstall XP, but for some reason I always forget about Morrowind. It aggravates me since I have spent so much time on my characters in the past and I have yet to finish the **** game! Lately I have less time on my hands than before so restarting AGAIN is not an idea I particularly relish.

Anyway, I got to spend some more time playing Gothic this weekend, and I just can't stop being impressed with it. It's doing a great job of keeping me occupied until DL's release.

[phalzyr]

Yep Gothic II is great I came to it late also, and can't wait for number 3. though like morrowind its meele combat take a lot of learning and getting used to. Though I can't recall ever playing a mage in gothic 2. As long as we are mentioning great RPGs that might of ben overlooked I thought I'd mention one that I'm using to get the time by while I wait fro DL. An old game also, it is called "Evil Islands" though its multiplayer portion sucks without major modding (and possible even with). The SP portion is just great, and I love its rarely used build your own armor from materials system. I always hoped there'd be a number 2 but..... It has an experience spending sytem similiar to DLs, In fact I don't think it even bothers to say what level you are... It has the click enemy it'll fight them till there dead system though, which fits it well.

[araczynski]

evil islands definitely was a good game :) not one that got much press, which is unfortunate.

since everyone else is sharing opinions, here's mine :)
ALL from a singleplayer standpoint:

NWN - fun, nice eye candy, decent story.
MW++ - fun, overwhelming, quest system way too vauge, good story,
Gothic1/2 - fun, controls sucked (hope they change it for 3), good stories.

[Cathail]

Since everyone else is weighing in on opinions... ;)

NWN - enjoyed it a lot, one of the few games I've played through the main quest more than once. Graphics were good, not necessarily earthshattering. Controls were good enough, doubt for what was being done they could be better. Story was good, that's what kept me going.

MW - combat was a bit droll, fun story, played it to death for endless hours, but once I finished the main quests for original and two expansions I quickly lost interest.

Gothic - Haven't played it, remember looking at early screenshots and decided I'd better not with kids and a rather picky wife. Maybe someday...

KotoR - Haven't heard much about it here, but for me the story on the original KotoR rates among the best I've played in the last few years. It being based on the NWN engine all my NWN comments about graphics and controls remain the same.

Gold Box D&D, original Bards Tale series - fond memories but now just a blur. Sorry, just had to throw those ancient and now mostly forgotten games out ;)

[txa1265]

Gothic - Haven't played it, remember looking at early screenshots and decided I'd better not with kids and a rather picky wife. Maybe someday... As I mentioned, after she tried a bit of RtCW, my wife basically gave up trying to keep up with my PC gaming ... last night we saw a Doom 3 commercial and she said "... that's the one you got for Christmas, right?" "Right" "... you are a disturbed individual" ;)


KotoR - Haven't heard much about it here, but for me the story on the original KotoR rates among the best I've played in the last few years. It being based on the NWN engine all my NWN comments about graphics and controls remain the same. Of course, KotOR *doesn't* use the NWN engine (Aurora) but rather a new engine, but obviously has a similar basis. Great story, party dialogue, and so on. I also love KotOR 2, it starts even better, but has a (now famous) somewhat disappointing ending.

I have a deep love of Star Wars games - my 'top 10 ever' is littered with Star Wars FPS & RPG games ...

Mike

[chamr]

OK. I can't resist! :p

NWN: haven't tried it. been turned off by the general opinion that the combat isn't very strategic or challenging in nature and that it gets to be too easy. Also all the chests/crates/barrels, etc. I know I would have to break them all. Ugh! I got enough of that in D2.

MW: Love/hate relationship for me.

Love the ideas behind the character development, enchantment, alchemy. Hate some of the execution (e.g. jumping/casting dozens of times for no other reason than leveling.)

Love the world. Expansive, beautiful, more "adult" in character than most other fantasy-based RPG's. Love all the houses and factions and political complexities. Hate that all the potential for carving out a unique identity within the complex politics is mostly left unrealized. Outside of a few factional hatreds, the overly simplistic influence system (admire, admire, admire, bribe, admire, admire....) and the overly simplistic crime system (you slept in a bed you shouldn't have in some podunk fishing village and suddenly everyone around the world knows you're a criminal? And they'll take the stuff you stole that no one knew about? Huh?), there isn't much there. 'Tis a shame.

Love the graphics and interactive-ness. It's great that I can pick all sorts of herbs and flowers from the landscape and actually make use of them. Hate the UI. Almost like they went out of their way to make it difficult in some cases.

I could go on and on...

Gothic: I finally had to download the G2 demo. Why not? I've only played an hour or so, but I don't get all the complaining about the controls and starting difficulty. It's no big deal. I've been able to easily whop the first few baddies without a problem. As for the game itself, seems a little unsophisticated so far. Dialogue and plot setup are a bit on the paint-by-numbers side and the world/models/graphics are quite dated already (didn't MW come out around the same time or even earlier? Much, much, much more impressive). Don't think I'll be spending my very limited gaming time on this one when DL would seem have the same or better challenge in the tactical combat realm and is obviously, since it's new, more impressive in the aesthetics department. Maybe there's more depth ultimately in G2, but who knows at this point.

KotOR: I tried to get into this one for about a dozen hours, and just couldn't. Too linear. Too bland. The execution is quite nice, but it seemed like a game that a 15y.o. would get a lot more out of. Very story driven, but not a story that is mature enough to hold my attention. And since the gameplay wasn't challenging and the character development lacked depth, there wasn't any satisfaction in it for me. I love IV, V and VI (minus ewoks, of course), but I can get my SW jollies by spending 2 hrs on a movie. The story isn't mature enough to hold my attention on its own for 30 or 40 hrs of gameplay.

[txa1265]

Gothic: when DL would seem have the same or better challenge in the tactical combat realm and is obviously, since it's new, more impressive in the aesthetics department. Maybe there's more depth ultimately in G2, but who knows at this point. There is tons of depth, and it really is worth playing ... but given the constraints, I'll make a deal. When DL comes out, I'll let you know if Gothic II is *still* worth taking the time playing.


KotOR: I tried to get into this one for about a dozen hours, and just couldn't. Too linear. Too bland. The execution is quite nice, but it seemed like a game that a 15y.o. would get a lot more out of. Very story driven, but not a story that is mature enough to hold my attention. And since the gameplay wasn't challenging and the character development lacked depth, there wasn't any satisfaction in it for me. I love IV, V and VI (minus ewoks, of course), but I can get my SW jollies by spending 2 hrs on a movie. The story isn't mature enough to hold my attention on its own for 30 or 40 hrs of gameplay.Honestly, while a few hours of play is enough (like a demo) to judge if it is your type of game, you are not in a position to comment on the depth and maturity of the story. In fact, even reviews that were fairly critical gushed over the dialogue, interaction and story. I took >60 hours the first few times through, and still generally take ~45 or so. The main quest is fairly linear, but the broad mix of side quests and NPC quests are very enjoyable and interesting ... much more so than the standard 'go there, kill this, get that, return' type in Sacred and the like.

Mike

[chamr]

There is tons of depth, and it really is worth playing ... but given the constraints, I'll make a deal. When DL comes out, I'll let you know if Gothic II is *still* worth taking the time playing.

Deal!


Honestly, while a few hours of play is enough (like a demo) to judge if it is your type of game, you are not in a position to comment on the depth and maturity of the story. In fact, even reviews that were fairly critical gushed over the dialogue, interaction and story. I took >60 hours the first few times through, and still generally take ~45 or so. The main quest is fairly linear, but the broad mix of side quests and NPC quests are very enjoyable and interesting ... much more so than the standard 'go there, kill this, get that, return' type in Sacred and the like.

Mike

Thought I'd be hearing from you. ;) Fair enough. You obviously have more experience with the game than I.

Truth be told, I look for strategic and tactical challenge in my games first and foremost. Ambience is second. Story is probably third or lower. As long as it doesn't take away from the atmosphere (i.e. too sophomoric, childish or nonsensical), I can live with it as long as the gameplay itself is engrossing. Therefor, if a game is depending heavily on it's story, it better be absolutely top notch and engaging on a very adult level. For me, KotOR's wasn't, for as much as I saw of it.

[phalzyr]

If strategic and tactical combat is your primary concern I can see why you didn't like KOTOR. IMO I haven't really seen many games with that in them, and DL didn't come off on me as that. BLock or attack? not much strategy. Most games enemies rush you on site so that element isn't present, and most recent RPGs don't have ability to sneak up on enemies or use invisibilty or such, flank, etc... Though when your a solo character some of those strategies become meaninglesss, flanking type of ones. Other than Baldur's gate style of games I can only think of one game that I play RPG wise that has had such an element to its combat "Evil Islands".

NWN: Though that is my cup of tea I couldn't get into their OC, but then I didn't try very hard. I bought it for tis modding ability, but it had to many annoying restrictions so gave up on it. NWN2 sounds like they are fixing the main complaints I had about NWN builder....one can hope....

MW: Same here Love/Hate - Definately hated its way too vague quest log after being out for too long it was hard/impossible to get back on the right track.

Kotor: loved it

Kotor 2: Mixed feeling hated ending three parts, way too rushed.

Gothic 2: Loved it, controls sometimes don't work on new system of mine though. I click but it doesn't attack :( maybe if I cahnge control style in options...forgot about that setting till now... As far as its depth I think it is so-so, but you have to get to first farm area before you'll see anything, and gets even better after getting to first town.