Freedom of Expression

[Boog7]

Personally my favorite read in forums are the ones full of anger and sarcasm etc. Why? Because they make me laugh..and I laugh even more when I see people get worked up about it. How did granny put it? "Well I never!"

The fact is, people express themselves differently and thats just the way it is. Not everyone in the world is optimistic or eloquent. These traits come for the most part, with age and wisdom. Oh and lets not forget respectfulness ,,this is the clincher. When someone gives a scathing opinion they're deliberatly being disrespectful. Do you honestly believe that?

Don't be stupid, they're merely voicing the fact that they're mad or disappointed or whatever,,and they're saying it in their own words and in a way they think will have the most impact. Todays teens are a great example ...crap and sucks are their favorite words,,,"I blame it on the simpsons",,but when you challenge them to be more constructive they get a perplexed look. So how do you teach them the error of their ways? Why you berate them and their expression and tell them if they can't say anything constructive or nice then shutup..Now tell me who's being disrespectful and lacking in wisdom?

In the end forums get all kinds of feedback. Devs really just focus on constructive input and ignore harsh criticisms since it comes with the territory. And lets just say when you put out a buggy alpha and called it a demo....well that adds to the excitement..

[araczynski]

they don't have to say something positive, but something constructive/usefull would be nice.

[Cathail]

There is nothing at all wrong with opinions, as you suggest everyone is entitled to their own. Every opinion is going to vary to one degree or another.

I try to only take exception when people start direct personal attacks on other people. Normally that doesn't happen in forums I frequent, or I would not frequent them, but it does happen from time to time.

[NecroViolator]

I agree... Everyone is entitled to my opinion... ;)

[Boog7]

Sigh* I think you miss the point.
Every critisism or opinion points to someone or something.
If I say " the ambient sound seems nonexistant in this game " and another guy says " what the &$# ? are the kidding me? what programmer made this gameboy soundtrack?" we'd both be pointing to the same problem and the same person.

Not everyone voices their opinion constructively. Before you jump all over someone because they cross your boundary of acceptance you should seriously ask yourself, whos throwing the first punch. Take Gurugazs thread for example. He harshly criticized the demo and pointed out the problems he had then singled out the programmer. So what if he's blunt. The fact is theres truth in what he said.
The thread only spun out of control because some people thought to educate him for his evil ways rather than answer him.

Necro - hehe luv that line

[phalzyr]

Boog 7: I think it spun out of control because he refuse to see that other people had different opinnion than he did, and attacked them for not following his beliefs. Well that is my opinnion I'm not saying your wrong, and yes I did think he made few good points (even though I loved demo). I don't mind people having opinnion different than mine but when I express mine I don't like being called names, told my opinnion means nothing and is wrong....

[araczynski]

If I say " the ambient sound seems nonexistant in this game " and another guy says " what the &$# ? are the kidding me? what programmer made this gameboy soundtrack?" we'd both be pointing to the same problem and the same person.


no, you're not pointing at the same problem, or the same person. the former is pointing at the person who made/implemented the ambient sounds for game and the latter is pointing at the whole sound department. which do you think a visiting dev will take back to their table for discussion, realistically.



Not everyone voices their opinion constructively. Before you jump all over someone because they cross your boundary of acceptance you should seriously ask yourself, whos throwing the first punch. Take Gurugazs thread for example. He harshly criticized the demo and pointed out the problems he had then singled out the programmer. So what if he's blunt. The fact is theres truth in what he said.
The thread only spun out of control because some people thought to educate him for his evil ways rather than answer him.


those that don't voice their opinion constructively, SHOULD be educated as to how to do so. otherwise you have a bunch of idiotic kids growing up walking around like cows in india thinking everyone cares about what they [apparently don't] think.

if it takes 30 biotch-slaps (across 30 different forums) to educate some of these uneducated pukes then so be it :)

[Narserke]

i don't think anyone is trying to repress the opinions of those like Gru, but just as he has the right to express his opinion in a public forum, the other members have the same right to respond to his opinion with our opinion of his opinion. I for one, and I know others are the same, don't insult them with our first reply, we tried to be calm and point out a few things, it is then that he or she would start attacking us. It is then that he or she gets upset and arrogant with us and acts like we are, as he called someone "forum police" or something to that effect and calling them insecure. Simply put, when you post anything in a public forum, you should be prepared for someone to offer there opinion and respond, positively or negatively. The whole point of forum posting is to inform and get response. If they can't handle the response and start insulting people..well. In short, he can be as arrogant and critical of the game as he wants, as long as he accepts that there will people who will disagree with him strongly. If he can't accept their disagreement maturelly, i.e. without lobbing back arrogant insults, and further argue his point without getting mad and paranoidly claiming someone is out to get him, then frankly he shouldn't post.

[Boog7]

If you progress through Gururgazs post from the start you'll find he restricted his opinions to the game until he was called a whiner and told he lacked common sense. Now tell me, am I to believe that because you insult someone and their opinion politely its acceptable? Is this contructive? No, an insults an insult.

Being the blunt guy Gurugaz is, I'm hardly surprised at his response..Face it some people took offense to his bluntness and couldnt see past it.

[Narserke]

If you progress through Gururgazs post from the start you'll find he restricted his opinions to the game until he was called a whiner and told he lacked common sense. Now tell me, am I to believe that because you insult someone and their opinion politely its acceptable? Is this contructive? No, an insults an insult.

Being the blunt guy Gurugaz is, I'm hardly surprised at his response..Face it some people took offense to his bluntness and couldnt see past it.

I really don't think it's his bluntness people took offense too, I think rather it was the arrogant way in which he delievered it. Not to mention the fact that as many people have pointed out if he had just taken the time to search the forums before posting, he would have found answers to his complaints. When someone pointed that out to him, he got upset and went off about not having to read the forums before he plays a game..which isn't what was said. He also went on about how shotty the programming was, which made me think he was a programmer, probably a good one, and there for whenever he sees something that has bugs he gets arrogant and goes on about how he could have done a better job.

Also, not everyone called him a whiner, one person did, but someone else who just tried to argue the points with him, he called that person insecure and pretty much went off on him, calling him the forum police just because he was asking him to read the forums next time. I don't think that's too much to ask, if he would have first read the forums, and then made arguements based on the post he read from chuk22, if he acknowledged that he was aware that all problems would be fixed, but that they shouldn't have released that thing and called it a demo when it was clearly and alpha build, people would have been more willing to agree with him, but as it is it seems he was going off on the game just for the **** of it. Nothing about his post came off as mature, at least not to most, and people called him on it. If he wasnt' a whiner, he wouldn't have acted do defensive and become so aggressive. A truely mature person, such as you seem to be, would have calmly smiled and stated that they aren't whining.

Also, you refered to him as blunt, as if you knew him personally, is he a friend of yours? Not that it matters, you may just be taking his side cause you don't like that no one else seems to be.

[Boog7]

Lol, Why is it when you defend someone you must be related or a friend? I don't know him from spit but I willl say I've had a few friends and know some yoots (hehe gotta luv my cousin vinny) who are rough around the edges just like him. Anyway, does it make them @#$holes, disrespectful or stupid? No, on the contrary they can be great and respectful people. Insult them and they just respond with their own brand of contructiveness. Cover your ears...

So my point remains..its very unlikely Gurugaz wrote his initial thread with the intention of being disrespectful..Yeah he was pissed and yeah he was blunt so whats the big deal? He said what others basically said albiet with more color. Or less depending on how you look at it. And yeah he responded to being called a whiner and lacker of common sense in what we'd call overboard and imature. And that was when everyone jumped in and had a go...bravo.... Obviously his being blunt meant the #$%hole was in him, you just had to coax it out.
Sounds too much like me breaking up the kids,,I'd send them both to their rooms..Lol

Narserke--Oh yeah lol,,I think in the end he snapped and lost sight of who the enemy was.

[Narserke]

I just wondered if you were friends...not because you were defending him, but because of the way you remarked about his bluntness, which seemed to me that you knew him personally, just a guess, and a wrong one at that i see.

the problem is that it's possible he really was just voicing his opinion, but we've had a few other people come into this forum to ***** who started off acting very immature..and Gurugaz's bluntness might have gotten him lumped in with that crowd of the others who complained and whined about the game, but did so without the facts or without substance..just for the pleasure of trolling and flaming.

[Boog7]

Good man,,enuf said lets have a beer..

[Narserke]

Good man,,enuf said lets have a beer..

well a beverage at any rate:)

[tbotus]

I concur that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I also agree that the overall response to his post was handled somewhat improperly. I do not, however, agree with the manner in which he made his first post. To me, that completely removes any validity that he may have had. I didn't even finish reading the post initially, as I felt that he was just going to rant behind the veil of anonymity.

*shrugs* Guess that some people feel that a little tact is needed to be taken seriously, myself among that group. If you can withstand such... distasteful banter, than more power to you. However, I don't think you should be so harsh in dealing out judgement upon others. To further convolute this argument, couldn't it be said that his particular means of free of expression infringed upon the rights of the programmers in the rude way in which he addressed the percieved problem at hand?

Eh, it's really pretty stupid that there was a debate at all. Or replies. ****, even this reply was pointless. However, I'm waiting on my wife's computer to finish formatting and had nothing better to do.

I will say however, that sticking Skittles to the sweaty backside of an overweight toddler brings a smile to my face and a twinkle to my eye.

[Cathail]

If you progress through Gururgazs post from the start you'll find he restricted his opinions to the game until he was called a whiner and told he lacked common sense. Now tell me, am I to believe that because you insult someone and their opinion politely its acceptable? Is this contructive? No, an insults an insult.

Being the blunt guy Gurugaz is, I'm hardly surprised at his response..Face it some people took offense to his bluntness and couldnt see past it.

I did not miss your point entirely Boog7. I have no problem whatsoever with criticisms, and even tend to ignore the fact that some are poorly formed. It's the personal attacks against the responders that was out of line, but then it did end up going both ways. I'm not going to go back and read the thread to see who started it, though it had been my impression at the time that he was the one to start throwing the insults when others suggested he go search the forum.

Hmm, beer... good idea.

[phalzyr]

Boog7: To say something is common sense to do, that Gru didn't do, doesn't mean he/she has no common sense. I believe I said in a thread that it is common sense to look at a game makers website before buying is common sense. I've bought games without doing such does that mean I have no common sense. NO, I just choose to bypass it and took risks. He/she called people worse than forum police, but it was more the way it was said. I don't think blunt is quite right though...

[Boog7]

I think we've kicked this dead horse into hamburger..

Anyways, the intent of this thread was to open eyes not judge. I think it also points out just how difficult it is to change a persons outlook even when the discussion is civil. Imagine when you try it with resentment..

[phalzyr]

Yes we failed to convince you of anything :) J/K

I also got the feeling that he started it but a certain poster was a bit rude to him back, more than needed....