VIDEO: Shadowland Showdown, featuring "Team Golem" tactics.

[Frag Maniac]

After writing several detailed tutorials on this, in an attempt to suggest an easier method than the IMO outdated FAQ on this boss, I decided the best way to explain this technique was to show it in video, despite some fairly telling screenshots I'd taken of it.

Although this is purely for tutorial purpose, it does show just how quickly this boss can be beaten, and how strong in armor and health you can wind up even if you damage yourself jumping into the fight area, and run into him on the way to the goodies.

If it had not been for the Fraps lag, and quicksaving 5 times to stop and restart Fraps, which takes a good couple seconds each save, this would have easily been my best time yet. I did come very close even with these factors at 1:35, vs my best of 1:30.

The health at 243, and armor at 194 upon ending the level are also among the best scores I've had.

I tried my best to show how skipping through as quickly as possible and "toasting you toes with the torch" on the altars (circles), not only assures you plenty support from "Team Golem", but at the same time can lure Alastor towards you and away from your stone friends.

This is an example of how this technique can work using only 2 altars, and even just one Golem, but you'll see the second that was not needed at the end of the clip.

The very affordable card selection was Rage and Haste, the difficulty level Trauma, the music,...well,...hope you like it, it's a bit different.;)

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Team-Golem

[BloodBuster]

I've never seen it done so fast! Also, the music was right up my street.

[Frag Maniac]

...of Fraps to launch after install, so I had to keep using the demo I have.

I played through it a few times and got times ranging from 1:44-2:00, which isn't bad, but this is the only one that shows the Golems and a nice shot of Al doing his firebreathing routine.

I didn't know if anyone would like the music, I happened upon it when I recorded the Pistolero track from Juno Reactor for the balcony secret. This song is also off their Shango album called Masters Of The Universe. I chose it for this piece because it sounds haunting and ritualistic, as if to be played while summonsing gods through sacrifice, which is what this tactic is all about.

[Mr. Q]

This level can be done in less then a min.
I try'd it the first time and had an 1.12 time but i realised i used the Health Stealer card and that one is achieved after this level (when playing Trauma you problably defeated him in Nightmare and already have the card), so i did it again whitout that card and changed an other card to.
The first time i used Speed and the second time i used Tripple Haste. Witch of these cards are the best i don't know thats for you to find out, mayby one will have and edge over the other.

The cards i used are Silver: Mercy (first time with Health stealer)
Golden: Speed / Tripple Haste , Double Time Bonus , Demon Morph
Running in Demon Morph is very fast.

First time
http://users.pandora.be/Mr.Q/Schadowland%20112.jpg

Second time
http://users.pandora.be/Mr.Q/Schadowland%20110.jpg

Video: (didn't put sound on it)
http://users.pandora.be/Mr.Q/Schadowland%20.wmv
As you can see there is a lot of improvement to make.

So try to go under one min.

[Mr. Q]

I didn't found the edit buttom so i put it here.

The video is replace by an other in witch i got him in 1.02 almost under the min. This time i only used Mercy and the Demon Morph card, i only forgot to take the screenshot.

http://users.pandora.be/Mr.Q/Schadowland.wmv

[SYS]

...a voice from the darkness.....

Nice videos from both of You! :)

I also do it the same way as You: I use the FlameThrower to "fry" Daniel a bit... ;) My best time was about 1:48 here, so it's not a big deal, but I usually had problems with Alastor, since he often destroys the first few Stone Giants for me... Using the Shotgun to confuse him was also mentioned earlier in the FAQ-threads, however that also never worked for me... So cards help a lot, but You also need some luck too, I think...

[BloodBuster]

Yes, I agree - I've never really properly sussed how to fry the big guy, and think that luck plays a role - quite a large role for me!

[Frag Maniac]

....NOT to show the fastest time it can be done in.

Obviously it can be done faster, just look at the limited card selection I chose, yet the time was very good despite these factors:

1) Getting to the megahealth at the end of the ammo trail in :49 vs the usual :42, due to the Fraps lag.

2) Losing another :05 at least in the fight area due to the Fraps lag.

3) Quicksaving FIVE times because of the free version of Fraps I'm using, and as a result, having to stop and wait 2-3 seconds for the Fraps counter to stop and restart, so the seams would not be as noticable.

If you add that all up, it's a total of around :25, which would have made the time more like 1:10, even though I only used Rage and Haste.

This I think exemplifies the fact that this boss can be beaten in very good time, even with very little help from cards, in other words, why spend all that money on cards you don't really need, 1:10-1:30 times are way below the required 4:00, and not pointing that out would be turning this video I submitted into a challenge for experienced PK players, not the tutorial it was intended to be.

It is my hopes that when a thread is submitted as purely a tutorial, you respect it as such. Jumping in and making it look like a challenge or competition only serves to make those that are having difficulty with it feel outclassed, and may even give up on it as a result.

[Mr. Q]

Just relax, i saw the video and thought "wel gone try this once". I looked at the cards and mayde the best choice i thought and got the first attempt a time of 1.11 then by recording (my fps are 20 or below then) i had almost the same time's so i posted it here to 'make it an challenge' for the best time. I thought this could be as fun just as the Monastry secret where we came with different sulotutions in wallclimbing.
I now this video you made was intended to an tutorial and with the right cards you shorten that time thats why i told the demon morph lets you run very quickly. But even you told that this would be youre fastest time if you had'nt had the Fraps lag so i thought i do you to a fafor by giving an other solution to this.
Look we are all here to make the game more fun and keep enyoing it longer then the usual games so sorry if you feel i ruined you're tutorial topic.
I'm still going to try it below 1 min.

[Frag Maniac]

...as cards, and I had not even tried doing this level strictly for time, but efficiency only, especially if it's the first time through the game and you need to go back and play through the game again, to get some cards missed, you have more money left over with less cards having been purchased.

If you'd understood this was strictly for tutorial purposes, you might have had the insight to post your video on a separate thread.

I happen to care more about helping those in need, than turning the game into a challenge. If you'd felt the same, you would have submitted videos for tutorial purposes, not bragging rights, which are subject to speculation anyway, especially in this level where Al does not always move the same way each time, so luck is a factor you can't get away from.

Look, I'm not trying to get a silly flame war started here Q, I just think you should recognize the difference between helping someone, and tooting your horn over something that is not only totally unecessary, but reliant heavily on luck as mentioned.

The fact that you saw to challenge someone using a free version of Fraps, as is evident by my video if you look closely, is an indication that your idea of a "challenge" is a bit skewed to begin with I think.

I could have answered by posting a scoreboard screen of what very well could be a better time than you achieved, using a better card selection, which is not much different than comparing your non restricted Fraps recording to my Fraps demo recording, but that would just muddy this tutorial thread further.

I just wish some players on this forum would appreciate the need for a little restraint when it comes to the vanity of competition, it's fine in a thread intended for it, and if the playing field is level, but here it's out of place IMO.;)

BTW, your Monastery secret video is another example of a "challenge" that's subject to speculation. There was no successfull wall climb shown there, so it could easily cause someone that does not see it as proof to say "where's the challenge in that?" that's why I made the joke about teleporting with the PK.

This is part of the reason I think SP "challenges" can be rather ridiculous, there's often just a claim made, but no proof, which can be the subject of debate, and all because someone wanted to attempt to prove themself better.

The only way we can really prove ourselves better, is to play online, and consistently get higher frag counts, but even there the playing field is skewed by differences in connection speeds, not to mention the fact that some are using cheats online.

[Mr. Q]

Look i've respect you do this for helping but if you look at the other video's you've posted they are surtendly not for beginners. The City on Water vids show crazy stuff that most people can't do so that's some bragging to i believe. I don't mind you showing off i've learn from those vids but please don't be mad for making one stupid vid in witch i kill him fast someone who can't kill normaly surly won't learn it the way you show in the vid, these are tac's for experienced players.
Look i've said enough about it we all have are opinions.
For the Fraps version i use an older version wich go to max 30fps but my PC cant handel more then 20fps while fraps is running and to honost whit or whitout fraps the time is the same with me.

And finaly i've made it below 1 min, didn't recorded it because i didn't now if it would take long or not and my capacity isn't that big enough to keep on recording.

My time is 59 sec and without other tac tic's i wont get much lower.
The cards i used are Mercy, 666 Ammo (so i only have to pick up the flame thrower), Demon Morph

http://users.pandora.be/Mr.Q/Schadowland%2059.jpg

[Grinder1989]

Look i've respect you do this for helping but if you look at the other video's you've posted they are surtendly not for beginners. The City on Water vids show crazy stuff that most people can't do so that's some bragging to i believe. I don't mind you showing off i've learn from those vids but please don't be mad for making one stupid vid in witch i kill him fast someone who can't kill normaly surly won't learn it the way you show in the vid, these are tac's for experienced players.
Look i've said enough about it we all have are opinions.
For the Fraps version i use an older version wich go to max 30fps but my PC cant handel more then 20fps while fraps is running and to honost whit or whitout fraps the time is the same with me.

And finaly i've made it below 1 min, didn't recorded it because i didn't now if it would take long or not and my capacity isn't that big enough to keep on recording.

My time is 59 sec and without other tac tic's i wont get much lower.
The cards i used are Mercy, 666 Ammo (so i only have to pick up the flame thrower), Demon Morph

http://users.pandora.be/Mr.Q/Schadowland%2059.jpg

Good job Q!

[Frag Maniac]

...nor am I angry at you. The videos I make are not always for the same purpose each time. The Docks ones for instance, are pretty much just tutorials. The City On water stuff is really a combination of showing camp spots, with some fancy gibbing thrown in, they are NOT specifically tutorials.

Players new to the game may very well progress to the level of achievment we've shown in various ways after dozens of times playing the game, but there are some spots in the game, and this in particular is definately one of them, where players struggling mainly need a way to just beat him and satisfy the card requirement. Showing something faster that they're probably not ready for is not going to really help them any.

"Look i've respect you do this for helping but if you look at the other video's you've posted they are surtendly not for beginners."

As stated above, I do specify which are tutoials, and which are not

"The City on Water vids show crazy stuff that most people can't do so that's some bragging to i believe."

Sure some of that stuff is not for beginners, but much of it is excellent for beginners, like the camp spots and shortcuts. The gib work which I think you mean when you say not for beginners is an example of how extra gold can be made. It is not a challenge put down as you might think, and I know perfectly well there are others that can gib well too, so I'm not intent on showing it for bragging rights, but rather educational entertainment. That is why when I describe them and edit music for them, I use humor and energetic tracks, rather than going on about challenges, I think that would spoil the fun too much. That series was done just as much for entertainment as it was for learning purposes. I thought it made sense to try to include both in one series, rather than make two series.

I really admire your talent Q, you have a good time there, I just feel this thread should have been kept in a theme of simple advice. Shadowland is not even a very good level for a challenge anyway, as his position when jumping into the fight area, and his movement can vary greatly.

Please don't be upset about this, I'm only trying to think of the players that need the help that's all. Doing that is as much fun for me as making crazy videos.;)

[[ThePact]]

Good Job Frag !

now THATS some soundtrack i wanted to hear !
i liked the sound more than the tactic itself :D

but really, that tactic is pretty fast man !

btw frag, i totally understand u had no intention to show the vid at the point of amount of time it took, but do others understand it too?! hopefully.

[Frag Maniac]

...between what is a tutorial thread, and what is one for challenge or entertainment, whether or not it includes any boasting.

I've heard members say many times, and I'm sure you have too, that they think they can't possibly do that, that's too hard, etc, etc. If the tutorials aren't done in such a way to show simplicity, consistency, and efficiency (as few cards and as little injury as possible), they're going to think they need a wing and a prayer every time they do battle with the ones they're having a tough time with.

After going over that battle scenario several times, I came to the opinion that Rage & Haste alone will give you consistent times well under 2:00, usually closer to 1:30 once you have the system down, while receiving minimal damage. Trying to drop below 1:30 costs more in cards, and is generally less consistent in results.

That being said, Q appears to have mastered this technique, though he's certainly not the one that first spoke of it.;)

[[ThePact]]

yeah, actually there was something that i just realized for the first time AFTER cing ur clip !
and that u'd need to get harmed even the "tiniest" amount inorder for the golems to get up,
before,
i thought u'd need to get kicked for good lol


this video is one of the best vids in the history of PK in my opinion,
particularly with a killer ATI what? 850? u have to make these things ! :)


btw, have u ever realized how slow the game can get sometimes while recording, specially with fraps? its due to the frameRate i think, but on second thought, maybe u've never seen it, afterall ur systems high end right? http://dreamcatcherinteractive.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Mr. Q]

Lets forget it, i respect you're vids and i know this one was for tutorial reasons. I only wanted to show how fast it can be done and if i started an other topic for schadowland mayby some else would have said to put it here.

Thats the end of the discussion for me.

[Frag Maniac]

"u'd need to get harmed even the "tiniest" amount inorder for the golems to get up,"

...to set the Golems in play, you can actually do it on the run like I show on that first circle. If you don't hear Daniel groan in pain though, you have to stop and toast your toes a bit more.:D

"this video is one of the best vids in the history of PK in my opinion,
particularly with a killer ATI what? 850? u have to make these things !" :)

Thanks pact, that's flattering, but I doubt I can begin to compare with the likes of Varus and others with such skills.;) BTW, that song you liked so much is called Masters Of The Universe, by Juno Reactor, it's off the Shango album as well as Pistolero, the track I did the balcony secret vid with.

The card is a Gigabyte X800XT PE, and it's pretty good for image quality, although other cards do produce better FPS on certain games, especially Open GL games like Doom3.


"btw, have u ever realized how slow the game can get sometimes while recording, specially with fraps? its due to the frameRate i think, but on second thought, maybe u've never seen it, afterall ur systems high end right?"http://dreamcatcherinteractive.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Oh I've seen it allright, I think anyone that records with Fraps notices the FPS drop, and it DOES effect gameplay somewhat.

[kalme]

I really don't understand this discussion going on here. Once again.
I just read through this whole thread chronologically. First I enjoyed the video of Frag, again a nice clip that shows some good tactics, and I'm sure people will learn from it. Then I was very excited when I read Mr. Q's answer, and as I downloaded his movie, I already thought about how I would do it and if it would be possible to make it even faster with a different card selection. I enjoyed watching his movie also. And then I came back to this thread and read the part where Frag gets upset about his thread being turned into a challenge, and all of a sudden the whole "magic" of this thing went away.

Sorry to say that and I really don't want to start anything here. But this is a forum, and it's meant to be a place to discuss things, right? If you share something with this community, then you can't restrict how or what kind of comments others make on your contribution. I have seen many threads here being taken over by others, often resulting in discussions about completely different topics. Is this a bad thing? Don't think so, that's the way things evolve, right? I played three or four times through Shadowlands just a few days ago, and if it wasn't Mr. Q, then maybe I probably had turned this thread into some kind of speed challenge, because one of the first things that came to my mind as I finished watching your movie, Frag, was: "Wow, that was fast. Hmm, I wonder. How fast can it be done?" This doesn't take anything away from what you accomplished. I'm still puzzled how you can merge these 30 seconds clips into a nice-to-watch movie (I wouldn't be that patient I think). And just like you said, your video is meant to be a tutorial, while Mr. Q's is aimed at more experienced players, I see no rivalry here. In fact, I would have been one of those people asking myself "why did he start another thread about this, there's another Shadowlands thread right next to it??" if Mr. Q has opened a new topic for this. I think it fits in here, and I really can't understand why you got so mad about this...

[Frag Maniac]

As to why you would do that, then accuse ME of harping, well go figure.:rolleyes:

Let's just suffice it to say I think tooting your horn and making a tutorial are two different things entirely, and I totally disagree with making a video that "claims" to be a tutuorial, when in fact it's a chance to gain fame for one's self.

There have been plenty of videos made on how to exploit bugs in the game, just to indulge in a little hooplah over the "I did t faster than you syndrome".

What I don't get about you kal, is that on the one hand you offer some straight forward practical tutorials on some things (like the fire pit jumps), yet others are nothing but an attempt to show off. In doing this I feel you not only give mixed signals to those seeking advice, but put yourself in a position of suggesting those learning the techniques aren't "hip" or "cool" if they don't rise to some ridiculous challenge.

This is the reason nine times out of ten I'll refer people to Varus' site over yours, he is very humble in what he does, and his first concern is about helping, not flaunting.

That's all I have to say about this kal, if you continue with it, I'll be seeing you as the one that's "mad", all I was trying to do was emphasize a point, not rant.;)

[Darkinfinity]

:) Good Job Frag! I´m sure in some weeks you have a complete tutorial set of all Painkiller Levels! You are extrem fast! Don´t forget :cool: i need all links!

[Frag Maniac]

...I posted on your site, it's on the thread that Pact says hello on.;)

"Don´t forget :cool: i need all links!"

So are you saying you want all of them sent, rather than just the Bridge Yard 2 you asked for? BTW, you never told me whether you got it when I asked you.

Let me know what you mean by this, links are one thing, emailed clips another. I can email them, but I need to know for sure that's what you meant, and if you want ALL of them, or just some.

[kalme]

That's all I have to say about this kal, if you continue with it, I'll be seeing you as the one that's "mad", all I was trying to do was emphasize a point, not rant.;)

Now that's a clever way of throwing some things about someone into a discussion leaving the other one no chance of answering. But it doesn't work for me, obviously.


As to why you would do that, then accuse ME of harping, well go figure.

The reason for that was that I just read through that topic, I didn't see it before. And the last answer of Q was just a few hours ago, so I really didn't "dig something up".


I totally disagree with making a video that "claims" to be a tutuorial, when in fact it's a chance to gain fame for one's self.
Q never stated this was meant to be a tutorial. And please don't tell me you don't enjoy it when people love the stuff you make and post, tutorial or not.


There have been plenty of videos made on how to exploit bugs in the game, just to indulge in a little hooplah over the "I did t faster than you syndrome".


What I don't get about you kal, is that on the one hand you offer some straight forward practical tutorials on some things (like the fire pit jumps), yet others are nothing but an attempt to show off.

What is so difficult to understand about this? I AM a show-off, if you want to put it that way. I enjoy if I'm able to do something the first time, for example. And often I work very hard on something, hours, days or even longer just to surprise people for a few minutes and to get that "wow"-expression on my friends faces. What's so bad about this? I also can't see anything ridiculous in these challenges for example. Other people spend five, seven, ten hours a day playing multiplayer matches. If you leave aside those 20-30 people who might actually being able to earn money with it, then tell me -- what is the reason they work so hard on this? To beat others, to win tourneys, to show-off and get a really good feeling when they are on top, right?

I'm too much of a Quaker, I spent too much time squeezing another second out of Q1 speedruns to stop this. Of course I'm curious what might be able, of course often I play through a map again and again just out of curiosity. But once I managed to do something I'm proud of, I want to share it -- that's natural, isn't it? I worked four or five days on that Asylum speedrun I was talking in the other thread. And although I finished the level in a low time I didn't publish it, because I wasn't satisfied with it myself. Because I knew people could only get a feeling about how fast this was if they tried it themselves, but not by just watching it. Not enough for a bragger like me :p.

Now for the second part. Helping others is a completely different thing for me. There's no point in telling someone who has a problem something like "hey, jo, with my 1337 bunnyhopping skills I can do that blindfolded, you should learn that too" (there actually ARE people on this forum doing this). And you won't find a single post of me where I answered a question and behaved like that. Far from it. I like helping people. And very often I use the same skills I brag about on other occasions to research things and give an answer as accurate and satisfying as possible. I don't think of anybody as "uncool" or "not hip" if he can't bunnyhop or join my challenges. Would I make helping movies if I thought that way? Another example is my new page. I made it just to have an easy way to publish small articles about certain things (it's very hard to manage those static content I used before), because I'm tired of losing posts due to forum crashes etc. where I explained everything in detail. I'm getting 10-15 e-mails a day from people asking questions about modding or technical things or bugs or something else. I spend way too much time answering all these things. On the other hand I just can't stop doing so. I hope this site will help getting me more freetime again because I have to write things only once and then I can direct people to it if the same question appears again.

By the way... I'm out of town for the next three days, so don't expect any answer from me. But let me close using your words: That's all I have to say about this Frag, if you continue with it, I'll be seeing you as the one that's "mad". :D

Have a nice time ;)

[Frag Maniac]

More or less you're saying you drag your Quake-like obsessions into this forum, fine for those that want to indulge in them, but very inappropriate to step on a tutorial thread with it in an attempt to pretend you're a better gamer.

You did go on about how you're a bragger, but that was clear to begin with I think, I boast too occaisionally, but the difference is I'm not so obsessed with it to not be able to separate that from humble advice, rather than turning this forum into a "brat pack" of, "I'm faster than you", or "can jump better than you",,,blah, blah blah, until some of the new members, and perhaps some lurking and thinking of joining, are bored silly with your selfishness.

I'm perfectly content with my gaming skills, I do not need to entice people into challenges, or obsess over speed differences to boost my ego, and I don't happen to think overindulging in it is a welcoming sight to some of the new players of this game on this forum that could care less how fast or good you think you are.

You usually greet people you see as new members with a friendly hello, but I imagine you as sizing up their skill difference, rather than being genuinely concerned about the way they want to play the game and what they get out of it. I get the feeling you're just being nice to them to keep the forum going, and to gain new fans, rather than seeing them as equal.

Very convenient of you to accuse me of not allowing you a response, then you turn around and do the same, not to mention excuse it by saying you'll not be around to reply. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.:p

Let's just say we are better off agreeing to disagree on this kal. This is not a Quake forum, or even a PK MP forum for that matter.;)

[Darkinfinity]

Yes, i know all your vids! :D And about the links, you get mail!

[kalme]

More or less you're saying you drag your Quake-like obsessions into this forum, fine for those that want to indulge in them, but very inappropriate to step on a tutorial thread with it in an attempt to pretend you're a better gamer.
Come on, now this really is unfair, I didn't say or pretend anywhere I'm a better gamer than you, and I didn't come to this thread to ruin it. In fact I think you ruined it yourself as you started this senseless discussion with Q, that's why I answered in the first place. You didn't understand any of the things I said, do you?


but the difference is I'm not so obsessed with it to not be able to separate that from humble advice, rather than turning this forum into a "brat pack" of, "I'm faster than you", or "can jump better than you",,,blah, blah blah, until some of the new members, and perhaps some lurking and thinking of joining, are bored silly with your selfishness.
Wow... :(


You usually greet people you see as new members with a friendly hello, but I imagine you as sizing up their skill difference, rather than being genuinely concerned about the way they want to play the game and what they get out of it. I get the feeling you're just being nice to them to keep the forum going, and to gain new fans, rather than seeing them as equal.
WOW :(

Your smilies at the end don't help anything at all, at the moment I'm left speechless and grieved. I realized that you can get angry and insulting very fast as you had your "little" dispute with Painkilla, but don't you think you've exceeded the limit here?

You know what? Maybe it's best I'm away for a few days, that gives me time to think about if I should ever return to this forum afterwards.

[Frag Maniac]

You make reference to my getting angry and not seeing your point, but in stepping into my conversation with Q, after it was said and done, where I stated more than once I was not angry but trying to emphasize a point, you sound to be the one with angst about it. Dragging out my dispute with Painkilla is not at all the same thing as what's going on here either, in that case there was a dispute over unfounded accusations made, not a difference of opinion about how tutorials should be done.

I don't know what your intent was on stepping into my talk with Q in the first place, it seems you're getting easily POed when someone that has the same lust for continual speed boasting is disagreed with, if anything that makes you sound cliquish and angry, over what is really just an obsession.

I, nor do I think anyone here wants you to leave this forum kal, stop your pouting, it's just a disagreement, and one that you didn't really need bring up in the first place. Liike I said, the talk between Q and I, and as far as I'm concerned it was just that, not the flame war you so quickly associated it with, was over, until you dug it up. The chronological order of the threads is viewable to everyone after all.

Please don't stay away just because we are not in agreement on this, that wouldn't be right.;)

...and I'm going to continue to use smilies even if you think I'm not sincere about it, which I'm sad that you do.:(

[kalme]

It's really your way of telling that everything is alright but at the same time you can't let it go and continue your insulting.

Still you don't understand a single word of what I said. It's not a "difference of opinion about how tutorials should be done" that's going on here, I think we never disagreed about this one. And again you speak of me digging up things, and again I answer that the last posting on this topic by Q (before I made my first answer) just was a few hours ago, look it up.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with pouting, don't try to treat me like a little kid here. If you think it's ok to insult people the way you did "just because of a little disagreement" (your words), go ahead. I really think what you said (and what you keep saying) was offending and totally inappropriate.

But well, what am I doing here, discussing some stupid things with someone who obviously doesn't want to understand me at 1:45 am, when I have to go to work at 4:30 am... cool. Good night, no more replies from me in this thread. Case closed.

[Mr. Q]

The issue was said between me and Frag but Kalme looked at it later and wanted to share his point of view because he didn't read it before, thats to understand. But now let us stop this stupid discussion he made a tutorial and i made a challenge if it is proper to put them together or not i even don't care anymore.

Lets all go in peace (not from the forum ofcourse)

[Frag Maniac]

...and more than once I might add, better to agree to disagree, than comment after a difference in point of view others have had, and perpetuate it into an ongoing arguement.;)

[Varus77]

You guys know that I'm not the hero in speaking English...anyway I've read all this replies...and it stressed my nerves more than a whole run through PK...

And now at last my very important question:

How the weather keeps going on tomorrow? Rain? Sun? ;)

[Frag Maniac]

...up there with Politics and Religion as things that are better off left alone, or at least tempered with restraint.:p

Point well taken Varus, and the weather is fine here, except for I have to check to see if it's raining every 30 seconds. (hint, hint);)