Online Petition Created - Letter to Heuristic

[RitingFool]

I have created an official petition to protest the growing trend of releasing games before they are finished. It's basically my "Letter to Heuristic" that I posted earlier.

To sign the petition, please go here: http://www.petitiononline.com/DunLord/petition.html. And thanks for your support!

Regards,
Michael

[Xyyth]

I will look this over but I am still going to give them until the first patch before I decide to sign it or not. I'm not sure why except out of courtesy and intuition that they are really trying to make an effort to fix this.

[kurgun]

It won't be fixed, think about all the delays with the game, they wont fix anything. If it took them this long to finally release the game and it's this bad now, how will patches solve anything? I know that's where they're there for but I fully agree with the first poster on that, just cause it's on the PC don't release it early knowing you can still fix it. Make the game flawless and then release it, the minor glitches and bugs are normally on a system by system basis anyways.

[scaryogre]

I have to agree...I really doubt the game will ever be fully functional. Take Temple of Elemental Evil as an example of how the developers and publishers interact on an issue such as this.

Ironically, because of its' premature release and subsequent negative fallout (i.e. drop in sales) it is HIGHLY unlikely the publishers will pay for more than one development patch on this game.

Due to the enormity of problems, Heuristic must release a patch ASAP. This patch will undoubtedly only fix a handful of the more serious issues leaving many other issues that wll never be addressed. We will be extremely fortunate if there is ever more than one patch on this game.

My personal belief is that this game is destined for infamy in the same way Pools of Radiance and ToEE was/is. There is no way game sales can recover from the bad word-of-mouth it has already received.

Such a shame...such a waste.

[joi]

I have to agree...I really doubt the game will ever be fully functional. Take Temple of Elemental Evil as an example of how the developers and publishers interact on an issue such as this.

Ironically, because of its' premature release and subsequent negative fallout (i.e. drop in sales) it is HIGHLY unlikely the publishers will pay for more than one development patch on this game.

Due to the enormity of problems, Heuristic must release a patch ASAP. This patch will undoubtedly only fix a handful of the more serious issues leaving many other issues that wll never be addressed. We will be extremely fortunate if there is ever more than one patch on this game.


I think they try to fix as much bugs as possible, the word about the bugs in the game is allready in all german forums, so if they don't fix it they will loose alot of sales in Europe

[RitingFool]

Just wanted to bump this up to the first page, so that first time visiters could see it. We are up to 70 signatures on the petition!

Regards,
Michael

[sal pancho]

I have to agree...I really doubt the game will ever be fully functional. Take Temple of Elemental Evil as an example of how the developers and publishers interact on an issue such as this.

Ironically, because of its' premature release and subsequent negative fallout (i.e. drop in sales) it is HIGHLY unlikely the publishers will pay for more than one development patch on this game.

Due to the enormity of problems, Heuristic must release a patch ASAP. This patch will undoubtedly only fix a handful of the more serious issues leaving many other issues that wll never be addressed. We will be extremely fortunate if there is ever more than one patch on this game.

My personal belief is that this game is destined for infamy in the same way Pools of Radiance and ToEE was/is. There is no way game sales can recover from the bad word-of-mouth it has already received.

Such a shame...such a waste.


I don't know about that. We don't know the relationship between HP and DC...if the fact that bgaum works for DC and is working closely with the development team says anything, it's that DC may be seeing the error of it's ways as well..

TOEE is another story altogether. Anyone who followed that fiasco knows that the only ones aknowledging the problems were TROIKA themselves. One of the devs went right onto the ATARI forums and said point blank that ATARI doesn't want to pay them for a patch, and doing one anyway would breach their contract. I don't think ATARI and TROIKA got along very well to begin with...considering TROIKA is responsable for some of the greatest PC RPGs known to man, and ATARI (aka Infogrames...you're not fooling anyone with that name) has done nothing but ruin some great developers, and licenses.

[3days]

Personally I totally disagree. And since this is a topic revisted at least read a decent solid letter from an old guy who loves the game and gaming and who I sparred with on the same issue a few months ago. This was posted back in Feb from Mike.

To DreamCatcher Games / Heuristic Park / D. W. Bradley:
From TXA1265

The members of the Dungeon Lords fan community, represented here at the Typhoon Games forums and also at the DreamCatcher forums, is very much anticipating the upcoming release of Dungeon Lords. We have been very much enjoying the recent flurry of activity – previews, screenshots, and videos showing the character screen and combat. But there was something in a recent preview that was troubling:

Quote:
The press pre-beta version was compiled on 1/14 and so with a 4/17 release date that means they'll have had about 3 months to polish it up by release date. I'm not too confident that they can do it in such a short time, and I'm worried that they will be releasing this game before it's done like they did with Wizards & Warriors, which would be a real shame, because like that title, this is an unpolished gem that with a little more time and care could be an excellent RPG. However, the game is playable in its current form, so as long as Heuristic Park and Dreamcatcher are committed to decent post-release support, it might be okay. Still, beware, early adopter.


While I do not claim to understand the internal workings of your development efforts, I am an older gamer, who has managed many very large projects in my professional life in the semiconductor industry. So when I read the above paragraph, I’m brought back to the old project management maxim – Time, Quality, Resources … pick two. In other words, if you have a fixed schedule, and cannot add resources, quality will diminish. If resources and quality are fixed, ,then time is the variable.

Why do I mention this? Because the community has seen the glimmering of what could be a very good RPG – perhaps even a truly great game. We see things that we love from various games – things that remind us of Gothic, Jedi Knight II, Blade of Darkness, Morrowind … but brought together in a single game, with an innovative skill system and a brand new world to explore. We see a lot to like in this game. Many of us feel ‘invested’ in the game – we have followed it, recommended it, really tried to make sure it has the best possible chances for success when it arrives.

So we have a request. Don’t release it until it is ready. Really ready – look to the past couple of years, where good games like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines had some players needing to perform a console ‘cheat’ to get past part of the game, where games like Temple of Elemental Evil and Arcanum and Sacred were released with such significant issues that it took several patches – and several months – to get them to a playable and enjoyable status. I’m not saying that patching will not be needed – it is an unfortunate reality of the diverse hardware and operating system conditions we live with that problems will almost invariably arise. And we hope that you will address those quickly and effectively when they do arise.

What we are saying is that we don’t just want you to release ‘a’ game, we want you to release ‘the’ game. And that we would rather have ‘the’ game in September than ‘a’ game in April.

Make use of this community – you have a small but loyal fanbase at these two sites. If you go forward with the beta, be assured you will get feedback – and based on what I’ve seen, there are all forms of systems, from Intel to Athlon, desktop and laptop, ATi and nVidia, English and non-English OS, and so on.

We thank you for developing this promising game, and look forward to working together in any way you see possible to helping you deliver the best possible gaming experience … so we can then go on and play the heck out of it!

TXA1265

And this was my initial response.
ie Zacho

Without apologies I disagree. Absolutely, totally and completely.

If the game, like Sacred is playable but buggy I will buy it. Even if I buy it and cant play immediately I will still be content. Sacred devs did an awesome job of staying on top of it and have a solid game (although I dont like personally) and its a good game for what it is.

If Dungeon Lords comes out in the same state and for one reason or another I cannot play it but the devs get it so I can play it I will not be upset. Small companies like Heuristic Park DO NOT have the resources available like EA. Some of you including those who have posted have bashed EA but fail to recognize the economic power they yield. They (such as EA but not HP) have all three resources as you have stated Mike but a company like HP doesnt.

If you want to encourage companies like EA and discourage companies like HP and Ascaron write letters as you have. If you want to enable a small gaming company to get a shot at redemption save your letters and buy the game.

In stating such.....if I have the opportunity to help a small gaming company (like I did with Sacred which I play very very rarely) and get them going I will. Cash flow is crucial to an initial project and unlike with the last game produced Wizards and Warriors the real gain is the internet where patches can be released effortlessly. Mike you know as well as I do that the masses buy games (and OS's like MS Winblows) and that games are constantly being released unfinished. It is a fact of life and no blanket letter will change that.

The real fact is that HP is small, ask CHUCK that keeps posting here. I am sure that he is hearing that unless he and they finish the game the company is screwed. Cash flows dry up, companies wither and we are left with albatrosses like EA and Microsoft. Screw that. If the game is released on April 20th unfinished and buggy I will buy it and wait.

Its a decision not a letter where you state altruistic reasons in a world where that doesnt work. Money talks bullsh*t walks and in God we trust you pay cash. Thats the nature of business even in something as simple as games which is now a billion dollar +++ industry and keeps getting harder and harder to make money.

So I disagree and hope that small companies like HP, Ascaron, and others (think Blizzard a few years ago) keep trying because I will keep buying in hopes that companies like EA (great another football game wow), and Microsoft (wow another Dungeon Siege) dont kill the drive to imagine, create, and make potentially great games.

zacho



So Michael you are not actually the first nor the last to post the same ideas and I still disagree with this type of missive that ignores the obvious economic issues that assail a company the size of HP.

Good luck and hope to see you online.

Zacho

[vesselle]

My personal belief is that this game is destined for infamy in the same way Pools of Radiance and ToEE was/is. There is no way game sales can recover from the bad word-of-mouth it has already received.

Such a shame...such a waste.


yeah, but POR2 was absolutely abyssmal!
the epitome of what NOT to do with a game.
the publishers shopped it out to 6 different development companies, yanking it away when it looked like each was close to finishing it, causing the worst features to remain and anything halfway good getting redone.

from that they couldn't deduce what could've possibly caused the bug that wiped quite a few angry gamers' drives. *rolls eyes* yeeesh!

[gutkin]

Please do not compare sacred with DL. True it was buggy, but they delivered what they promised, and they did not full out lie to their customer by saying some features were not intended.

AutoMap Proof (http://www.dungeonlordsgame.com/images/in/screenshots/scrn0002.jpg)

[Tenka]

*sigh*, poor Heuristic Parks, takes flak from their own Publishers stupidity.

That letter should only be directed at Dreamcatcher, HP had nothing to do with the early release. I assure you it was all Dreamcatcher's fault, they have done nothing but try to ruin this game from day 1 with their impatience and ignorance. HP even originally announced that the game wouldnt be released until the 15th (that 1 more week wouldve had the game patched and ready to go), but NOOOOOOO god forbid the game be at a respectable state on release. WHY?! DREAMCATCHER??! ... WHY???, You pre-announced things that never happened, you released a Demo in its BETA state, and you released the game UNFINISHED.. ARE YOU LISTENING TO YOUR CUSTOMERS?!?

I better stop before I begin to REALLY tell them how I feel.

[sal pancho]

Please do not compare sacred with DL. True it was buggy, but they delivered what they promised, and they did not full out lie to their customer by saying some features were not intended.

AutoMap Proof (http://www.dungeonlordsgame.com/images/in/screenshots/scrn0002.jpg)

The folks at ASCARON have proven with Sacred to be a model development team. Wether you like the game or not, the've shown more support than I will probably ever see (unless HP surprises me)...even as far as releasing a free expansion to the game. To bad the game didn't pick up to much steam here, but overseas it's earned them what they've worked for...

[3days]

Thanks Tenka. I think that you, Mike and I all agree on that. Hope you are enjoying the game.
Zacho

[Smilybri]

----------bump

[RitingFool]

Guys and Girls:

Several people have added "joke names" to my online petition, along with an "in character" joking comment. While I greatly appreciate the fact that you agreed to sign the petition, making jokes doesn't exactly work in this context. I'm trying to make a serious point to the game companies, and for them to see sarcastic comments by "real life developers" just won't help the situation.

So I would ask that if you are serious about signing the petition, please do so using your real name. Thanks for your cooperation.

Regards,
Michael

[scaryogre]

I don't know about that. We don't know the relationship between HP and DC...if the fact that bgaum works for DC and is working closely with the development team says anything, it's that DC may be seeing the error of it's ways as well..

TOEE is another story altogether. Anyone who followed that fiasco knows that the only ones aknowledging the problems were TROIKA themselves. One of the devs went right onto the ATARI forums and said point blank that ATARI doesn't want to pay them for a patch, and doing one anyway would breach their contract. I don't think ATARI and TROIKA got along very well to begin with...considering TROIKA is responsable for some of the greatest PC RPGs known to man, and ATARI (aka Infogrames...you're not fooling anyone with that name) has done nothing but ruin some great developers, and licenses.

You are right Sal. We don't know the relationship between DC and HP. And you are also right about the ToEE situation being a big pissing match between Atari and Troika. I'm assuming a lot with my statements.

Let's just hope that this retail release fiasco doesn't spell the end of HP like the premature release of ToEE spelled the eventual end of Troika. That would be the biggest shame of all.

I guess I've become more than a bit skeptical and jaded as a gamer these days. I fear the worst for DL at this point in time. Mainly because I have seen so many of these well-intentioned "situations" of developers promising to patch games turn quickly into disappointment...primarily due to the publisher refusing to authorize/pay for a patch. Quite ironically the publisher's actions in this regard are typically a result of poor sales which are brought on in the first place by their own decision for a premature release.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong this time.

[wolf]

Quite ironically the publisher's actions in this regard are typically a result of poor sales which are brought on in the first place by their own decision for a premature release.

What I'd like to know is how can this kind of thing still be happening? Have Dreamcatcher learned nothing? Are they helmed by business men with less than no understanding of the products they sell?

[Xyyth]

The folks at ASCARON have proven with Sacred to be a model development team. Wether you like the game or not, the've shown more support than I will probably ever see (unless HP surprises me)...even as far as releasing a free expansion to the game. To bad the game didn't pick up to much steam here, but overseas it's earned them what they've worked for...

I didn't buy Sacred immediately after release so that's probably why I didn't experience the bugs. I wasn't following the release that well anyway. However, as of right now, it really is a fun game and I have not experienced any buggy gameplay at all.

[RitingFool]

I didn't buy Sacred immediately after release so that's probably why I didn't experience the bugs. I wasn't following the release that well anyway. However, as of right now, it really is a fun game and I have not experienced any buggy gameplay at all.

Now that they have fixed most of the bugs, and the Sacred Plus expansion is out, I may just go pick this up today!

Regards,
Michael

[Tuskil]

Wow, HP is an excellent team of devs. Dreamcatcher is a small publisher trying to turn a profit. Basically Dreamcatcher can't afford long delays (Like ID's Duke Nukem; the eternal delay) Look at Dreamcatcher's other titles.. most are *value-ware*. Dungeonlords got shuffled into an unhealthy development cycle, it doesn't really belong in a bargain bin, it belongs with a larger company.

Instead of condemning HP or DC, both of which worked with what they have, condemn the publishers that turned away Dungeon Lords! I applaud DC for taking the project on.

Demand in depth and large scale games from the big companies, instead of these cookie cutter shooters and MMOs or "RPGs" that offer low content and/or gameplay time. Support HP and Dreamcatcher, because these guys are the ones turning out the kind of games you're looking for! Remember Interplay?

I mean why else did you buy Dungeon Lords and not "yet another" expansion to Diablo II or MoH?

Whatever happened to the rpg space-sim? Well Dreamcatcher has some of those too, and the big guys dropped those because of easy to build cookie cutter shooters. Yap.. games get dumber as they try to reach a broad market.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I paid an obscene amount of money building and upgrading my system to have it reduced to nothing more than a PS2 or Xbox. My rig is far better than that.

Really the power lies in money, you support the genre/style of game you like and you stand behind it.

I mean look, look at the amount of WWII clones came out after MOH! Look at the amount of crap churned out cloning BF1942.. give me a break. petitions mean nothing. It's all sales, people.

[phalzyr]

Sacred: Great game first play through, then it become kill one thousand monsters to gain a level and the level gained does little need about 5 to make a difference and the number of monsters needing to kill increasing. It a great game if you like monster hunting fro exp but...Even after patches I had troubles with MP LAN games.

[Jockemon]

Good job RitingFool.

[mooreplus]

Personally I totally disagree. And since this is a topic revisted at least read a decent solid letter from an old guy who loves the game and gaming and who I sparred with on the same issue a few months ago. This was posted back in Feb from Mike.

To DreamCatcher Games / Heuristic Park / D. W. Bradley:
From TXA1265

The members of the Dungeon Lords fan community, represented here at the Typhoon Games forums and also at the DreamCatcher forums, is very much anticipating the upcoming release of Dungeon Lords. We have been very much enjoying the recent flurry of activity – previews, screenshots, and videos showing the character screen and combat. But there was something in a recent preview that was troubling:

Quote:
The press pre-beta version was compiled on 1/14 and so with a 4/17 release date that means they'll have had about 3 months to polish it up by release date. I'm not too confident that they can do it in such a short time, and I'm worried that they will be releasing this game before it's done like they did with Wizards & Warriors, which would be a real shame, because like that title, this is an unpolished gem that with a little more time and care could be an excellent RPG. However, the game is playable in its current form, so as long as Heuristic Park and Dreamcatcher are committed to decent post-release support, it might be okay. Still, beware, early adopter.


While I do not claim to understand the internal workings of your development efforts, I am an older gamer, who has managed many very large projects in my professional life in the semiconductor industry. So when I read the above paragraph, I’m brought back to the old project management maxim – Time, Quality, Resources … pick two. In other words, if you have a fixed schedule, and cannot add resources, quality will diminish. If resources and quality are fixed, ,then time is the variable.

Why do I mention this? Because the community has seen the glimmering of what could be a very good RPG – perhaps even a truly great game. We see things that we love from various games – things that remind us of Gothic, Jedi Knight II, Blade of Darkness, Morrowind … but brought together in a single game, with an innovative skill system and a brand new world to explore. We see a lot to like in this game. Many of us feel ‘invested’ in the game – we have followed it, recommended it, really tried to make sure it has the best possible chances for success when it arrives.

So we have a request. Don’t release it until it is ready. Really ready – look to the past couple of years, where good games like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines had some players needing to perform a console ‘cheat’ to get past part of the game, where games like Temple of Elemental Evil and Arcanum and Sacred were released with such significant issues that it took several patches – and several months – to get them to a playable and enjoyable status. I’m not saying that patching will not be needed – it is an unfortunate reality of the diverse hardware and operating system conditions we live with that problems will almost invariably arise. And we hope that you will address those quickly and effectively when they do arise.

What we are saying is that we don’t just want you to release ‘a’ game, we want you to release ‘the’ game. And that we would rather have ‘the’ game in September than ‘a’ game in April.

Make use of this community – you have a small but loyal fanbase at these two sites. If you go forward with the beta, be assured you will get feedback – and based on what I’ve seen, there are all forms of systems, from Intel to Athlon, desktop and laptop, ATi and nVidia, English and non-English OS, and so on.

We thank you for developing this promising game, and look forward to working together in any way you see possible to helping you deliver the best possible gaming experience … so we can then go on and play the heck out of it!

TXA1265

And this was my initial response.
ie Zacho

Without apologies I disagree. Absolutely, totally and completely.

If the game, like Sacred is playable but buggy I will buy it. Even if I buy it and cant play immediately I will still be content. Sacred devs did an awesome job of staying on top of it and have a solid game (although I dont like personally) and its a good game for what it is.

If Dungeon Lords comes out in the same state and for one reason or another I cannot play it but the devs get it so I can play it I will not be upset. Small companies like Heuristic Park DO NOT have the resources available like EA. Some of you including those who have posted have bashed EA but fail to recognize the economic power they yield. They (such as EA but not HP) have all three resources as you have stated Mike but a company like HP doesnt.

If you want to encourage companies like EA and discourage companies like HP and Ascaron write letters as you have. If you want to enable a small gaming company to get a shot at redemption save your letters and buy the game.

In stating such.....if I have the opportunity to help a small gaming company (like I did with Sacred which I play very very rarely) and get them going I will. Cash flow is crucial to an initial project and unlike with the last game produced Wizards and Warriors the real gain is the internet where patches can be released effortlessly. Mike you know as well as I do that the masses buy games (and OS's like MS Winblows) and that games are constantly being released unfinished. It is a fact of life and no blanket letter will change that.

The real fact is that HP is small, ask CHUCK that keeps posting here. I am sure that he is hearing that unless he and they finish the game the company is screwed. Cash flows dry up, companies wither and we are left with albatrosses like EA and Microsoft. Screw that. If the game is released on April 20th unfinished and buggy I will buy it and wait.

Its a decision not a letter where you state altruistic reasons in a world where that doesnt work. Money talks bullsh*t walks and in God we trust you pay cash. Thats the nature of business even in something as simple as games which is now a billion dollar +++ industry and keeps getting harder and harder to make money.

So I disagree and hope that small companies like HP, Ascaron, and others (think Blizzard a few years ago) keep trying because I will keep buying in hopes that companies like EA (great another football game wow), and Microsoft (wow another Dungeon Siege) dont kill the drive to imagine, create, and make potentially great games.

zacho



So Michael you are not actually the first nor the last to post the same ideas and I still disagree with this type of missive that ignores the obvious economic issues that assail a company the size of HP.

Good luck and hope to see you online.

Zacho


if its not fitting to their business model to make a *finished* working product, they should NOT be in this business at all, rather than ask for charity. So, I agree with you, they cannot properly make this game. They should go do something else then, not half *** it and sell it anyways, knowing its half assed. I could see an arguement if they were up front about it (big 'this sucks a little bit guys bear with us! we're broke and dont know what we're doing' sticker on the box or something) but they promote the game like it's the bees knees and it turns out to be a 'meh' dealie with great monster art and nothing else. Love that troll, but he wasnt worth $40.

[Cnestea]

I am really tired of people bashing Dungeon lords that have not even played enough of the game to give an opinion. Mooreplus if you think this game is bad you definitely do not want to pick up Universal Combat I have never seen a game with less of a point then that one. That development team should be out of business not Mr. Bradley .

[Siderius]

I am really tired of people bashing Dungeon lords that have not even played enough of the game to give an opinion. Mooreplus if you think this game is bad you definitely do not want to pick up Universal Combat I have never seen a game with less of a point then that one. That development team should be out of business not Mr. Bradley .

That's funny, I was about to say that I am getting tired about people making sweeping positive statements about the stability of this game who haven't played the game enough to have an opinion.

Hopefully my 30 hours, having seen 75%+ of the world, and level 15 while being unable to progress at this time falls under "enough time" to say that this game is unstable, frustrating, lacks listed in the manual, and most of all is highly unbalanced.

"Joe gamer" buying this game would find a total nightmare; no, not at first, but within 20 hours they'll be screaming bloody murder. That is my opinion. If you are willing to put up with a lot of problems and read forums constantly AND several good patches come out soon, then I'd MAYBE recommend looking at buying this game.

[daz0]

I have created an official petition to protest the growing trend of releasing games before they are finished. It's basically my "Letter to Heuristic" that I posted earlier.

To sign the petition, please go here: http://www.petitiononline.com/DunLord/petition.html. And thanks for your support!

Regards,
Michael
YOUR A DICKHEAD NOB PRICK< THE GAMES MINT

[RitingFool]

Thank you, Mr. Maturity. I really respect that opinion, you bet.

And judging by your other posts, you really get off on that particular four-letter word, huh? You are the essence of the word FANBOY, and trust me, in twenty-plus years of gaming and maybe fifteen years posting on message boards, I have NEVER, EVER called someone that name before.

Regards,
Michael

[Incanus]

<BUMP> Game still sucks, ask for a refund.

[Crispy]

The petition is unfortunately dismissable due to the following section:

"This attitude is entirely unacceptable to me. I would rather wait three years for a nearly flawless game (there will always be some bugs), than a year or year-and-a-half for a total bugfest. But I realize that “money runs the world” in many respects. Publishers want the game out now, they need the revenue now. But how can you pride yourself on your work if it is incomplete, unfinished and broken? Games should not be like George Lucas movies, where you can go back and retouch things the way you wanted/intended. Do things right, release the game the way you intended it to be from the very beginning…or don’t release it at all."

These statements, while subjective, are still patently false. No one giving the game a fair review can call it a "total bugfest" without tipping their hand. Your petition should have, IMO, stuck the its intent and spirit, that game publishers and developers are doing loyal gamers a disservice by rushing games to market and relying on post-release patching.

You've done well in its writing and intention, though. Very rare to see some degree of literacy on the internet these days. :/