CHUK22 - a critique of DL

[Ikarius]

I'll start off by saying that I think this game has amazing potential. There's a lot about DL that I absolutely love. The concept of LAN cooperative multiplayer RPG has huge untapped potential, I believe.

So you know what kind of a gamer I am, I've played the wizardry games, diablos, baldurs gates, elder scrolls, gold box games, the fallout games, everquest... etc. You get the picture.

The combat system.... decent, not great, not unredeemable. The major problem with the combat system is not the system itself, but the enemies you end up fighting. The hordes of wolves, The hordes of fighters in Ulm... when you go up against large groups, the careful, methodical approach to combat no longer pays off. You end up having to either resort to geometry abuse to fight fewer enemies, or wade in flailing trying to do as much damage as possible then get out quick and heal. The best ways to address this would be deeper work on enemy AI and level design, so that enemies were more challenging as individuals, and geometry abuse becomes much less useful. Also, some more guidance/documentation about the combat skills would be useful. When does parry kick in? can I parry when I'm swinging my blade to attack? The only game I've played which let me combat hordes of enemies and did not feel like it was just a mad slashfest while doing it was Ninja Gaiden on the X-box. Diablo could be OK, but playing a warrior definitely left a lot to be desired in terms of encouraging tactical play.

The skills/classes.... decent, but could definitely stand improvement. How about setting traps for one of the thief tier 2 classes? Part of the issue is that the current skills have more to do with how classes deal damage, and there doesnt appear to be a whole lot of ways to manage the enemies. If you made some of the damage skills more basic, and made the specialty class skills more about enemy management, I think that would improve things a great deal. Note that I still really like and enjoy the class system that exists. It's a great base!

The world & quests... you folks ran out of time, pure and simple. I strongly suspect that another 6-8 months of grind time would have made this game great. Enhance the towns, more side quests, more interactivity... and this game probably would have been a game of the year contender. You might consider hiring someone with FPS level design experience, though. A lot of the building interiors are poorly thought out, and could use someone with good architectural skills. I do like the flavor between the different towns though.

The engine.... my number one complaint about the engine itself is the "pause" which happens every time enemies spawn. It is jarring, it ruins the suspense of not knowing when enemies are going to appear, and from what I hear, it plays havoc sync for multiplayer games. Just fixing this would go a LONG ways towards redeeming the engine. The next thing I'd do would be adding more interactive items in the world... it would bring it to life a lot more.

I'll close by pleading with you... please, PLEASE make a dungeon lords 2. Perhaps go talk to Bethesda about funding, I dont know how ugly things are given sales of DL1, but at the same time, dont give up hope. In 2004, ToEE was Atari's #1 selling PC CRPG, and Atari's #2 selling PC-only game. Yes, it's sales beat both expansions for Neverwinter Nights in 2004. That says a lot about the long-term sales possibilities for good CRPGs.

If DL1 remains a failure (sales-wise- I dont reguard it a failure as a game) and you are unable to make a DL2, it will only further convince publishers that there isn't a viable market for this type of game.... and that is something I very much do not want to see.


Cheers
Ikarius

[NightCreeper]

Pretty good post. As I'd like to see a DL2, I still think this game can be polished to near completion. Yes, it may take a few hundred megs of patches, but I purchased the game, see the potential of this product, and am more than willing to be patient while they work on it. Hopefully, it's not something that will take 6 months to accomplish and hopefully the dedication to improve it will continue. Either that, or release the source and allow the community to fix it.


I'll start off by saying that I think this game has amazing potential. There's a lot about DL that I absolutely love. The concept of LAN cooperative multiplayer RPG has huge untapped potential, I believe.

Amen to that! That's the whole reason I was interested in this game. LAN play is still great, imo. Just needs some polishing.

[Runeblade]

I agree, that was a good post. I too would love to see a Dungeon Lords II. If only Bethesda would fund it. That would be great. Or maybe Activision..... I dunno. A DL2 is not likely to see the light of day. :/

It sure would be nice if that pause while playing could be fixed in a patch.

[Flostin]

DC Bradley representative: Well Bethesda, we have plans to make a Dungeon Lords 2, and was wondering if you'd be honored to help us fund it. We already have an awesome dev team, and even have our own engine for it.

Bethesda Rep: This engine you speak of, is it the same one you used in all your games, you know the poorly tweaked engine you keep trying to update that's 50 years old?

DC Rep: Of course, but we've made vast improvements since then, I mean just look at the improvments of the engine we made in the creation of Dungeon Lords 1!

Bethesda Rep: Riiight......Umm I was able to look up the information on the game you wish to make a sequal out of, Dungeon Lords 1, I found it in an old archive of the top 5 games released unfinished.....It seems the game had 3 of the top 5 positions, how do you respond to that?

DC Rep: Look, that was just a bunch of hype, we eventually released an expansion DVD which added in key features such as mounts, missing skills, thousands of techincal bug, graphical glitches, missing quests, emmersive experience, lag issues, mismatched NPC voice-overs, and general furnishings that made the game almost 80% complete, which is quite an improvment over the initial release which was nothing more than a 5 hour game of 50 hours wandering aimlessly around a devoid world not even knowing which direction you were facing, or where you were going, or the fact we had the code for MOUNTS, but just didn't feel like finishing it up.

Bethesda Rep: .........................Uhhhh....according to this, the game permenantly ruined DreamCatchers reputation and they went bankrupt within 3 years, as REAL PC Gamers everywhere simply refused to ever spend their hard-earned money on their beucratic propaganda that was DreamCtacher, ever again.

DC Rep: Perhaps, but Dungeon Lords inspired a new law to come in to affect that prevented games from being released in such an incomplete state, so Dungeon Lords paved the road with ideals on how new games should NOT BE...when released. I mean think of all the horribly incomplete garbage that would have been allowed to flood the market, had we not made such a bold statement.

Bethesda Rep: You make some good points, but why should a reputable company like us take the risk of associating ourselves with you?

DC Rep: Because your cool, and awesome, and it's just money....I mean come on....You heard the fans, they want a DL2, so it's gota be the right thing to do.

Bethesda Rep: Maybe....but in a logical world, we here at Bethesda know the world is full of many close-minded people, fickle people. We're also bright enough to realize EVERY game has it's hard-core fan base(Fan, from the word FANATIC), whom will always praise the game, no matter how lousy, or unfinished it may be.

DC Rep: Ok, ok....but DL2 is more than 500 times complete as DL1 was.

Bethesda Rep: That's nice and all, but if my calculations are correct, that would only make it 50% complete, and we here at Bethesda don't do things half-(%$#'ed). I must now ask you to please leave.

DC Rep: No, DL2 is soo kewl, come on man!!!

Bethesda Rep: "SECURITY!"

DC Rep: Nooooo, *Evil eyes glare up* We shall infiltrate Bethesda and ruin you like we did DreamCatcher, Ahh haa haaa!!!! *DC Rep dragged off*

Bethesda Rep: Wow....that's the 5th time he's come here......

Another Bethesda Rep: You think he's noticed yet that the company cup coasters we use to put our drinks on actually are DL1 CD's?

Bethesda Rep: Naaa......




DC Rep: *Calling Activision* Hello, Activision? We're putting together a great new game that's exciting and ground breaking, it's a sequel to one of our older games, It's called Dungeon Lords 2, and we here at DC Bradly would just like to ask the nice people at Activ........Hello????....Hello? *Dial tone*

[Ikarius]

Nice troll, Flostin.

Yep, DL was released unfished. I'm sure it was released unfishished because either HP was running out of money, or the publisher(s) forced the issue.

The engine in DL1 is new.... at least newly developed by HP; it's never seen the light of day before. You can't claim that it's old and outdated... there are only a few games out there which have better looking graphics, and every one of them is a FPS (MUCH simpler to make) and/or from a company with a huge budget for art.

And lastly, the reason some company should lay down cash for DL2 to be made? The engine is basically in place. With a little tuning and polishing, it could be excellent. That means the team could spend the vast majority of their time working up the world, story, and details for DL2.

Move on, mr troll.

[Flostin]

You seem to miss the point, as do many other of you either very young minded or fanatical people. In the grown up world if a company were to advertise a toy, and release the toy with unfinished parts, and without parts it advertised, the company would be gone....POOF....sued, dead, etc. You only further the stereotype of fanaticism. The only ones defending DL1 are the fanatics(fans). Any intelligent person who's played a variety of game types and who spent money on this game is going to feel violated as a consumer, and as another review on DL stated, this game is an INSULT to the PC gamer community. Why do you think Gamespy gave such a low review, even though it's GAMEspy who hosts the servers? Because, to say anything else, other than what has been said about DL on the Gamespy, and GamersHell review for starters....is just a lie. From a real gamers stand point, of playing countless games, reviewing countless game....there is just no way to show any positive face for Dungeon Lords....Nothing. The extent, and honest reviews, *Which I doubt you'd try and call THAT trolling*, all say the game had potential, and that's about all that's good about DL.....Anything else you try to say that's decent about DL is just garbage.

The only excuse I have heard is along the lines of "Well if you don't like it, don't play it, it has enough features to keep me playing, and I enjoy it". That's about the stupidest thing I have ever heard....Who hasn't enjoyed playing stupid games at times, or even pure simple games? We've all enjoyed games like Minesweeper, Solitaire, etc. From that point of view, any type of game can be "fun" to play. The fact of the matter is avid gamers like me have played games, and beta/alpha tested so many games when we play DL we feel like it's a game in early beta.....we can tell when you go up to a door, and it shows a door name it was MEANT to be added in the game to enter that house, but never was. When we see stables and no horses, and our on our 5th hour of walking to god-knows-where, and notice in the game files functions and graphics were added to make mounts, so as to not get bored of walking around, we feel a strange loathing for spending 40 bucks to beta test a game.

Get some real world gaming experience son. If this WERE a beta, many of the bugs, glitches, etc would have already been addressed, and patched, and beta would be continuing on. We gamers have gamed long enough to realize all of this, we've experienced it. To see a game using such an old engine....*AND YES it is the same old engine, just tweaked.....check the code yourself* and such horrible code, netcode, same old sounds from older games, etc, we feel it as a personal insult, and that's what DL is. Some people will enjoy any game you throw at them, some people will only enjoy the game because they kept track of it for so long and wanted to play it for so long, psychologically they can't accept it's failings, due to their vested interest in the game. And some people are just naive, or ignorant. Luckilly the people who write reviews usually need a good vocabulary, and general intelligence level, so don't take my word for it, head over and read the reviews.

[Ikarius]

Flostin,
Well, at least that post was not an out and out troll like the one before. You have some thought behind it, so I'll respond.

First off, computer games are numerous orders of magnitude more complex than any toy you can name. They are also software, which means they can be patched and fixed. Time and money constraints have driven companies to push what's considered "shippable" much lower than it should be. I absolutely agree, it's deplorable, but it's happened. We've been patching our computer games and programs since there were modems and you could dial into software company BBS systems to download patches, or download them from Compuserve... yes, since before the internet. It's only gotten worse since the internet and the Web made getting patches simple and non-technical. Heuristic Park is not the first, nor the last, nor are they even the worst offender in this reguard. I'm hard pressed to name them off the top of my head, but I know that there have been games which as shipped, were not even completable. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, but it's the state of the industry. You're free to yell and scream, I hope it will change some day, but it is what it is at the time being.

As far as why I am encouraging them? Well, the number of games released that are the type of games I really want to play is very small. Dungeon Lords is not only the type of RPG I want to play, it's actually very unique in it's support of cooperative LAN multiplayer. I dont have many other choices. And as I stated in my first post here, if Dungeon Lords remains a failure, it increases the likelihood that publishers will turn down other games like it in the future, as publishers are risk-averse. Does that make me a fanatic? I don't think so, but believe as you will.

At the very least, Heuristic Park has demonstrated that they want to make Dungeon Lords better, they've paid attention to what people asked for after the demo, and changed things in the game based on feedback before it shipped. It's called constructive criticism.

As far as what you're doing, you're jumping on here and tearing down the product, the developers, and the publishers. I hope you feel better afterwards. I'm sure you're very frustrated.

BTW, if Heuristic Park did all the things I suggested in my initial post, do you think you'd enjoy the result?


Ikarius

[NightCreeper]

You seem to miss the point, as do many other of you either very young minded or fanatical people. In the grown up world if a company were to advertise a toy, and release the toy with unfinished parts, and without parts it advertised, the company would be gone....POOF....sued, dead, etc. You only further the stereotype of fanaticism. The only ones defending DL1 are the fanatics(fans). Any intelligent person who's played a variety of game types and who spent money on this game is going to feel violated as a consumer, and as another review on DL stated, this game is an INSULT to the PC gamer community.

Blah blah blah blah blah...Don't you EVER get tired of posting the same freakin things over and over and over and over again? Seriously, you have many valid points, but you CONSTANTLY use condescention, and patronize those who seem to enjoy this game. And it's gotten very boring over the past few days.

I have the right, just as anyone else does, to state if I enjoy this game or not. That, by no means, makes me a fanatic, or young-minded. Does it mean because I enjoy the game that I don't recognize the flaws or incompleteness of the game? Of course not. And for someone like yourself, or anyone else, to accuse that is simply due to ignorance. I'm sorry, but the truth sometimes hurts.

And enough already about lawsuit this, sue that, bull. There is NO GROUNDS for any class action here whatsoever. Maybe it's arrogance clouding your vision. I don't really care. They are more than covered from this by the License Agreement, so enough already. Idol threats are made by children, and you don't seem like a child to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

Again, you make many valid points. Try making them without condescending, patronizing, or using sarcasm that makes you feel like you're funny. Really, it only makes you look very immature and invalidates much of what you state.

Again, I apologize, but I'm simply tired of reading the same posts from you with the same actions in them. Respond in a flame if you must. I guess that would only prove the arrogance, immaturity, and ignorance as well.

[Arath]

Maybe its litle out of the thread but the more revievs im reading ,posts im noticing more negative opinions more missing stuff ... armors quests npcs horses automap skills stats and many many more the more im thinking that if the game had all the stuff at the relase it whould be a hit a number one game bether then Gothic Morrowind NWN BG IWD it could be a superior game and at this moment i only hope that they whilll add all this missing stuff in future patches and the game whill have a chance to show that its a realy amazing cRPG one of the bests (i personaly dislike only one thing in this game except bugs and missing stuffs its about the emptines of the world and mobs spawning couldnt it be done like in Gothic(or any other game) or so ? )

That are my 2 cents

[NecroViolator]

I'm still in the dark about the Beta Testers that are supposed to have Beta tested this game...

Why didn't they see ANY of these "bugs" from the beginning to end ?... :rolleyes:

[NightCreeper]

I'm still in the dark about the Beta Testers that are supposed to have Beta tested this game...

Why didn't they see ANY of these "bugs" from the beginning to end ?... :rolleyes:

I understand what you mean, but does it really matter now? What's done is done. And an explanation won't change that. Something obviously was overlooked, but it's just not of importance now.

[NecroViolator]

I'm not really asking for an explanation...
Just wondering only...

There was many pictures of other Towns and Forts, but are not in the game...
Just wondering again...

Man, you cant ask or think of anything in the Forums and people flame you worst than the Fire Drakes in game... :eek:

[NightCreeper]

Lol. Flame? Where did I flame you? You consider that a flame? Simply stating that what's in the past is done. What's important is what's done in the future. My reply was by no means meant as a flame. I apologize if you saw it as one.

[NecroViolator]

I know..... I know....

I meant it as a Joke... ;) ....
No offense, please forgive me...

I woke up this morning with Drake Flaming breath and noticed my Night Stand was burnt to a CRISP....
Thats why Arendale don't have any furniture... I slept there a few nights and it was expensive... They had to order some new Furniture it just didn't arrive when the Game was shipped.... :eek:

[POQWAD]

For me, DL is not unlikeable. But to push something out the door so very far from ready is very bad business. Accurate reviews like Gamespy's will not help sales at all. And I doubt no amount of patches can change that.

And more than likely cRPG's will take another hit...fewer will therefore go into development and fewer will be released for sale.

As a fan of cRPG's, that's what bothers me most.

[cyclops]

Well, imho they made all the "goodies" like more buildings, npc´s and items a long time ago (about a year or so) and at the end there was not enough time to put all the planned things together. So they decided to push this incomplete version out and "deliver" the rest in the future - hopefully...
Cause many things are in the code already, like over 700 different weapons and armor (but only about 300 are in the game), mounts, etc. - the game started (from the planning) like an elephant and landed like a mouse... ;)

[Zeon42]

I dunno what games Flostin is/was a beta tester for-if so he didnt do a very good job.

I not defending DL in its current state but most games have serious bugs and yes I am a gamer.

Most games I have played RPG/MMO etc have serious bugs/exploits which ruin gameplay..

Sad but true so spare us the trolls

[araczynski]

you guys really need to stop pointing fingers at the beta testers, its not as if they have any control of the ship-to-retail-date.

its ALWAYS up to the publisher (unless you happen to be a powerhouse developer and/or are lucky enough to be able to negotiate something like that into your initial contract [unlikely]).

the publisher doesn't give one rat's a*s about whether the game is 100% done or 85% done, they want it out to the door and they want their money, NOW.

why? because they know the developers will be forced to spit out patches which will make 'everything ok'.

when they ask as to the state of the build, they don't hear the developers saying "we're almost there, have to polish a couple things" their greedy pig ears hear: "we're done, and can patch the rest up after release".

[Residuum]

"...greedy pig ears..." - I like that :D

[3days]

I would have to agree with POQWAD's assesment the most out of many of the posts.
"And more than likely cRPG's will take another hit...fewer will therefore go into development and fewer will be released for sale.

As a fan of cRPG's, that's what bothers me most."

Hopefully that isnt the case but it could be.
Zacho

[6ULDV8]

For those who care about my 2 cents. I have loved the game since the demo was released, even though it was a beta version and extremely raw in its presence. But the final release seems as though it was released a month after the demo....Completely raw.....I figure I have put 60+ hours into a level 14 character, and comparing to a $40.00 price tag of the game makes me a $.67 an hour beta tester!! Now do not get me wrong, I have spent more money on POS in the past like D&D Pool of Radiance, in which their original release was so bugged that you had to reformat your HD and re-install your OS. It has been stated numerous times before and I will state again that this game has or had soooo much potencial. Now me in my honest opinion thinks that from a marketing stand-point believes that it never should have been in the same time frame as Guild Wars release date.(Guild Wars that was thouroghly beta tested from the *Gamers* end) I just think that they should have taken more time to get it right and deliever a product that we were happy to buy. It is like you or I going and purchasing a car that is labeled as fully loaded, and when the car arrives has a ceiling fan for Air Conditioning and a 8 track in place of a Bose system!! We had the wool pulled right over us and it is BAD BUISNESS.......but like I said that is only my 2 cents....And still believe this game can be fabulous and revelutionary!!

[Ranger]

I am assuming that everyone on these forums is from the United States, because I live in Australia where this game has not been released yet!! I only managed to come across by a luck on eBay.

When I read the manual, I was really hopeful that it would be a great game to play, however, I have also played Temple of Elemental Evil. Anyone who played ToEE v1.0 would tell you that the game was so bugged you could not complete it. However, this did not mean that we did not like what we saw. We were badly dissappointed that we couldn't get the most out of our money, however, we loved the gameplay, the potential. We could see that, in the future, this GENRE of game would be great fun.

I can totally relate with the criticisms and agree with most of the criticisms, however, I think the blame is misdirected.(What I partially disagree with is the criticism about the AI that was mentioned in the first post. I thought the AI was quite good. Wolves attacked you in packs, bats did annoying fly-by attacks, bees swarmed you and constantly attacked you. Dragons kept you back with their fire breath which made them so frustrating to fight. I do agree with the massed fight AI. Often I had to rely on the monsters killing each other, which didnt seem quite right!!)

The game designers, creators and beta-testers would not have had the final say in whether or not the game would be released. They could probably give a recommendation to the producers, but at the end of the day, they can not tell the management "Do not release this game, it is not ready". The blame must lie with the people who control the funds, the people who dont care about the gameplay or what the game should be, the people who only care about the profits they want to make.

So I too am going to raise my hand and say, please release DL2!! And please release it in Australia! The game has its bugs, but the gameplay is terrific. What is more, DL is a new and exciting way of playing an old genre and therefore deserves the community support it gets! (I don't care what anyone says, DL kicks the crap out of NWN!! My skill with the sword determines what I hit, not some dice roll!!) If you dont like the gameplay, or you just hated the bugs, at least support the introduction of a new type of game instead of just another clone!!

[Azzy]

I Love Bethesda! Fine Morrowind!
Stop DL1... stop DL2... DLx ... Bad Dreemcatchers... Give Money Back!
I wish go www.dreamcatcher.com instead

[Spellcast]

Having purchased the game on a whim at a wal-mart, Specifically because it had multiplayer LAN support and i had a few friends coming in for the weekend for a LAN party, I feel I have to post something.

The game has so much potential it hurts. There are some very serious bugs, and had i done my research I probably would have waited for a few weeks/months and seen what kind of patches became availible for it, and if they fixed the majority of the problems.

However, I didnt.

And you know what, I enjoyed it anyway.

OK, we had some pretty interesting problems exiting the buildings in arindale, (3 of our 4 party members ended up in the mountains west of Lake Hadoen, surrounded by very bad tempered dragons). The no automap caused some initial problems, but my friends and I are all old school gamers (ultima 1 and earlier is where we started) so having to make our own maps/navigate from the large paper map was not a huge issue after we re-adjusted.
The combat system took some time to adjust to, but its a nice change from the point and click madness that is the mainstay of most rpg's these days.

We didnt actually experience any significant lag running 4 machines on the LAN(other than the monster spawning lag, which really does detract from the immersiveness of the game, but thats something else entirely)

The inability to load/save characters on a local machine is something of an irritant, but from perusing the boards i see that a more robust character management system is supposedly int he works.

The world is significantly empty, which is kind of a drag, and travel is very hard on the fingers... (is there some way to toggle "move forward" to always on for moving between towns? holding down the w key while traveling is kind of fingercramping)

The fact that if you make a decision in some of the chats with various NPC's you can never go back and change your mind is a bit irritating(my wife accidentally hit the "no thanks" option because her mouse jumped a bit when asked if she wanted to join the sisterhood, and is now locked out of that option)

In general the quests are a bit fragmented and feedback on them is mighty slim. (it would be sooooo nice if when you placed the candle for the celestial seers quest it acknowledged it and told you to return to fargrove to complete the quest)

All in all however I enjoyed the game. Probably we will hold off for a couple of weeks, see what patches get released and try again (starting from scratch to redo some things we want to change about our characters) the next time we get together.

I know of a few other very small game companies that have released much more unfinised products that I have happily paid for because I felt that the potential was worth my money, (guildsoftware's vendetta-online is one of them, www.vendetta-online.com Its a FPS space MMORPG kind of like the old elite games but i digress)

Although they at least have the excuse that they are totally self funded and needed money to continue development at all. I shudder to think that dreamcatcher was so interested in cash that they pushed this project out the door unfinished. I dont honestly believe that a dev team would be happy releasing a game in the condition this one was released in. most programmers i know have more self respect than that.

I will continue to play, spend some time exploring the world a bit more, and keep an eye out for patches and updates, I hope that the game can be brought up to its potential, but even if it doesn't 40 bucks isnt that huge of a loss, and for something as complex as a computer game thats just the risk you take when you buy one without doing any research.

[DaisyDuke]

"there are only a few games out there which have better looking graphics, and every one of them is a FPS (MUCH simpler to make)"

Oh yeah, this game was way better then Half-life 2 and doom 3.....sigh.

Simpler to make??? Please dude, one area of half life 2 has ten times the depth and feeling of the whole dungeon lords game. The modelling doesn't come close either...there's tons of games better looking then this.

[Zyxial]

Okay for those that are already crying DL2 please!!!

Think about what you just wrote... Not really trying to flame here but how about not feeding that frenzy until they finish the first one... I personally do not want to go out and spend another $40 just to have the game I should have had the on my first $40...

I work 2 jobs 16 hours a day 5-6 days a week... and I have to say that equals one whole day's wages. After gas, time, and frustration is added in... Oh and don't forget if you hadn't had a online connection you are going to have to get one to have the completed game you should have had out of the box...

I still recommend to those here in the United States to call their congressmen and women, your legislators and help the whole community from getting screwed forevermore....

Think about it there are those who may not have an internet connection ( even in this day and age) and have no way of fixxing the game... Is this right? Oh its kinda like buying a 6 pack of beer and the bottle is fine, has proper labeling describing the cool refreshment inside, its sealed and even makes a nice crisp psst sound when you twist the cap... but in order for you to enjoy the liquid refreshment that somehow was never put inside the bottle you either A.) have to drive to the brewery and have it filled there or B.) send the bottle via UPS, FedEx, and they will send you a coupon to redeem at your local pub,bar and/or tavern... If this was a 6 pack at least the companies involved would already be burning to the ground... mass riots would take place I asssure you...

And I don't like the sound of oh " Budlight 1 " was great how about making it all better with "Budlight 2." HOW ABOUT GIVING US WHAT WE PAID FOR FIRST!!! Then maybe as consumers we will let the market be there for you to sucker us again to open your empty bottle of stale air... at least the empty bottle might have a genie in it that will grant me three wishes so I can wish for the beer, wish for the demise of those responsible, and of course wish for a software industry that will wake the **** up and finally do the right things... tell the truth let the consumer decide if s/he wants to provide the company with the money it needs to further develope the game it had originally sold...

I think this is the main message all the flamers would just love to get across... We aren't knocking the game, we aren't knocking the work, we just would like to see the box say "This box contains a playable, unfinished product and based upon further sales will determine its further developement..." Hummm.... gee I wonder why so many love the MMoRPG ... cause this is what they really do that a normal single player RPG can't... tell the truth...

[TheDonkey]

First off, computer games are numerous orders of magnitude more complex than any toy you can name. They are also software, which means they can be patched and fixed.

What about people who dont have internet access? Yes there are some out there. So they are just screwed? You cant use the excuse that because its software and patchable that makes it ok to release it unfinished since you can just patch it later. I suppose they could mail in a request for the publishers to mail them back a CD with the patch, but without internet access they arent likely to know theres a patch available. Or maybe they can get a friend to download it for them. I think thats more trouble than someone who paid for the game should have to go to just to get it to work the way its supposed to.

[Jeremy [DC]]

Please note if you have no internet access, in your game manual, you will notice a number for technical support. They will assist you in getting a patch.

Whilst it is not convenient to receive an update this way, I could confidently say that most games do have 1 or 2 patches after they are released.

Thankyou for your understanding

[POQWAD]

Whilst it is not convenient to receive an update this way, I could confidently say that most games do have 1 or 2 patches after they are released.

Most cRPG's have those extra little "frills" like...oh...subquests...NPC's...music...furniture. ..character customization...maps...WHEN they are released.

Not weeks or months after...if ever...

Dungeon Loads has the distinction of being the first DC game that I ever purchased.

It also has the distinction of being the LAST DC game that I will ever purchase.

[Jeremy [DC]]

I happen to have enjoyed the art & npc's in the game, especially through exploring I found that there where many different things to be found, how much of the game have you actually played?

[Shock]

I don't think there were any beta testers. If there were, they were either blind or 4 year old kids. /shrug

[malvado]

']I happen to have enjoyed the art & npc's in the game, especially through exploring I found that there where many different things to be found, how much of the game have you actually played?

How about the beta testing? Was it persistent or was it a haste work? Arindale is quite early in the game and just shows that they had to have missed something since it appears completly empty and unfinished.
And why does the game install old files used by the Deep6 Engine found in Wizards and warriors released in 2000/2001? A code comparision and file date analysis suggested a rewrite of some of the code/core engine but somehow a lot of rubbish file got through (some of those are not in use).

Appareantly what fans believe is mount coding is in fact rest of the code used in W&w I believe, althoug it is hard to acertain 100% if this is correct.

[TheDonkey]

So what if they reused old code. So what if they reused sounds effects. Maybe they decided they liked those old sound effects. If you are saying they reused old code that didnt work properly then I can understand that, but having never played W&W I wouldnt know. If you are simply complaining that the graphics and engine are outdated and shouldnt be reused, I disagree. I still play games that are 10 or more years old to this day. Master of Magic, Warlords 1 & 2, Ultima 6 & 7, to name a few. Just because something is old doesnt mean its bad. In fact those older games tend to be better because they didnt focus so much on perfectly realistic 3d graphics like most games do now. I would rather have a good game in other respects than one that looks good. More often than not these days games that look really good, thats all they do, is look good, the rest of the game sucks.

[chamr]

']I happen to have enjoyed the art & npc's in the game, especially through exploring I found that there where many different things to be found, how much of the game have you actually played?

Jeremy, I would tread lightly here if I were you. I respect the courage it takes to engage the community in frank discussion on the game and thank you for that, but some things about the state in which this game was realesed are indefensible. Any explanation short of "we just didn't get it done in time" for such glaring incompleteness as the rooms in Arindale Inn and the completely AWOL "army" insults the intelligence of the folks that bought the game. I, for one, enjoy much of the game, but don't like having my good will taken for granted.

[POQWAD]

Hi, Jeremy.

I played half-way thru the game. I stopped--lost interest--in Skuldoon (beating up the minotaur in the coliseum).

The towns I've seen, Fargrove and Skuldoon (and a tad in the other one...Arindale? I forget the name) have all been pretty sparce...scarcely any more NPC's than the days of Crusaders of the Dark Savant).

By any modern cRPG standards, DL is woefully lacking in subquests, NPC's, random non-main quest dungeons...

While it is understandable that you may be "too close" to the game to perceive the many shortcomings in the barebones 1.0 release, Jeremy...believe me, they are there in much greater degree than the few I've touched on in this post.

[Shock]

Yeah, the cities are pitiful and unfinished due to a rush job on this game. I hope Heuristic Park is planning on finishing these areas and adding people and quests to them. Anything to make it interesting and not a "3D Modelling Showcase".

[Sigarr]

Hehe-I just have to wonder how much of the Game Jeremy has played hinself.
All I have left to do is finish the Last Portion to reach "End-Game". I have not done that because I Know that IF there is anything "Substantial" in the forthcomming Patches I will start from "Scratch" Again. So,for the past 3 Weeks all I have Done is Explore,explore,Explore. I am level 31 Now and there is probably less than 10% of the Entire map that I have not been over 3,4 or more Times. I just have to wonder WHERE all this "Art" and all these "NPC's" are that Jeremy found so "enjoyable". I certainly have not found them.
Once in awhile I just have to go back and See "Seer Augustus"--Hehe, this old fart just refuses to Die! And then on to Elvithra where I still get the Initial Husband Dialogue and Elvithra tells me "Don't pay him any attention-He is Sick". And then to Gileah in the Fargrove Inn--"Once you have become a member of the Sisterhood I will have More to Discuss with you"--LOL! IF this was Not so Indicative of extremely poor Coding it would almost be "Hilarious".
Anyway,Like Most everyone Here I am Hoping they get some Patches Out and SOON! It is taking Far too Long. I am beginning to get the Impression there is only ONE Programmer left at HP--Bradley! I am a Bit Puzzled as to Why Chuk22 and Bradley did not take Me up on My offer to Help. Had they Done so I felt fairly sure there were a few others here Who had enough Programming Experience that they would Aslo have Volunteered their Help.
I guess I understand though why they Might not want to Reveal the Code to any of the Playerbase. Well,all we can do now is play the "Waiting-Game" and Hope the patches come fairly Soon!

[Jeremy [DC]]

Your opionions do count, I personally feel there could be alot more improvement added to Dungeon Lords, I have enjoyed the game though.

I have been playing games for over 20 years and I know that it's hard to please every individual gamer out there because we all have different kinds of expectations out of any game.

How many times have I played all the way through... good question, about 4 or 5 times and alot of running around in between I can assure you (plus many hours of overtime).

We do appreciate the feedback, we are doing our best to address any issues our customers are having, as I have stated in the past, if you have any major concerns, please private message me and I will do what I can to help.

[Xyyth]

I think the majority of people expect a reasonable amount of quality from the games they buy and Dungeon Lords wasn't really even up to that standard when released. I don't think the consumer's expectations were too high. I think the quality control of the game was too low. It might be just complete enough to be playable but there's a lot of missing stuff that was intended to be in the game.

[POQWAD]

Thanks for responding, Jeremy. I appreciate it, and I'm sure many others do as well.

And yes, it is impossible to please everyone. However...


I have been playing games for over 20 years and I know that it's hard to please every individual gamer out there because we all have different kinds of expectations out of any game.

The only "expectations" I had concerning DL was that it contain the features mentioned on the box...(and subsequently within the manual and per creator/ developer published interviews).

It did not.

The issue of whether I like the game or not is irrelevent as I did not, by any publishing standards that I'm aware of, receive the game I paid for.

And that's why, per my earlier post in this thread, I will not purchase another DC or HP game.

I have found these companies to be misleading and untrustworthy.

[Jeremy [DC]]

We are working towards meeting expectations and other features being requested by the community.

Personally I feel we are moving forward with this game, we know a patch is on the way which will improve the game and of course the sooner the better.

Hopefully we can find a way to improve your view of DreamCatcher and our games in the future.

Thank you for your patience

[POQWAD]

Jeremy, while the game can, and should, be "patched", DreamCatcher's image is another matter entirely.

DC's reputation has taken a huge hit due to the release of Dungeon Lords in the condition that it was in.

While this very pre-mature release would generate some short-term cashflow, the long-range reprecussion could possibly be something that your company will not be able to overcome.

At least not anytime soon.

It will certainly require more than a few promises on a chatboard...no matter how well intentioned they may be...

[Shock]

blah blah blah...

It will certainly require more than a few promises on a chatboard...no matter how well intentioned they may be...

http://www.wtec.org/loyola/mcc/mems_eu/Pages/up_arrow.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/bw_crying_girl.jpg

[POQWAD]

C-Can it be? HAVE I risen to the lofty heights of having my own personal troll?

I think I'll call 'im Igor.

Now...back to our regularly scheduled whinning...

Why doesn't the automap work? What a rip! :p

[Bugman]

I'm still in the dark about the Beta Testers that are supposed to have Beta tested this game...

Why didn't they see ANY of these "bugs" from the beginning to end ?... :rolleyes:


There never was any Beta test for DL.

My English is pretty poor (sorry) but i'll try to explain the way a Games takes till it get realeased. First is Engine/Animations/Map design, when thats finished they adjust some NPCs (just the quest relevant ones- rest comes later), story and quets. Now its time for a first Alpha test to make sure all works at leastim a poor way..........


After all the Alpha stuff/testing they start to fix stuff thats needs to be fixed and adjust NPCs/Music/furniture and so on and than its time for a Beta test :)

DL dont got Musik/furniture/ not quest relevant NPCs and much more so it never was ready for Beta testing.

[POQWAD]

...they should'a given this one the Kau Pi test...

[Psimon]

']We are working towards meeting expectations and other features being requested by the community.

Personally I feel we are moving forward with this game, we know a patch is on the way which will improve the game and of course the sooner the better.

Hopefully we can find a way to improve your view of DreamCatcher and our games in the future.

Thank you for your patience

Patience is a virtue, but not all of the Forum members feel like being virtious - or mature, for that matter ;).

Face it, if the game didn't have some redeeming qualities, there would be a lot less complaining. Likely the forum would be almost dead - people would not complain about something they didn't care about (save for perhaps 1 or 2 really flaming posts). They'd either be trying to return the game, or write off the $40.00 or so they spent, and move on.

Of course I'm a bit unhappy with the game's incompleteness, myself. I understand the reasons why I'm essentially playing a beta. However, the game is addictive, it hasn't crashed - once - since I've played it, and it's a game I am always are happy to see, the single-player dungeon crawl. I haven't and likely won't explore the multiplayer side of DL. The lack of content and immersiveness kills it in a multiplayer arena, I think, but I'm perfectly happy with single player - if I wanted multiplayer, I'd boot up Neverwinter Nights.

Just like to say, as a member of the "community", that not everyone - at least, I - think less of Dreamcatcher at this point. You have an active forum. You patiently put up with the hair-pulling, feet-stomping, bawling, wailing, and outright vituperative abuse some of the gamers seem determined to vent.
It sounds like you genuinely care, and that you - DC - are supporting DL.

I've gamed longer than you, PnP and computer, and I've bought dogs that the company didn't even have technical support. Or if you dialed them up, you were put on hold, forever. Games that absolutely either couldn't be played, or couldn't be completed due to bugs. Games that, when they were published, the publishers immediately moved onto their next project, and even announced, publically, that any and all support for the trash they foisted on the gaming community would not be forthcoming.

So far, Dungeon Lords hasn't been one of those. And, even if Dreamcatcher announced, today, that the patch will never be a reality, and drops all support for the game, I'll still be happy. Because the game I managed to exchange for DL crashed five minutes into playing it, every time.

If support goes away, the suggest to make the source public (assuming a DL2 isn't in the works) is a good one, btw.


Looking forward to the - hopefully soon - release of the next patch. I'll also be keeping my eye on the reviews for other DC releases.