"MY THEORY" or "How to finance your next video game project"

[freshjuice]

quoted from another thread

i wouldnt hold your breath but i kinda of figured the patch wont be here beacuse the game was delayed on uk probably to release it with all bugs fixed i really think they are working on patch 1.3 right now and will only release the patch when all bugs will be fixed:)
but maybe im just hoping till then the game is shelfed what a waste of good money

Gold24 --- without knowing it -- you're a genius!

What you said gave me a theory ... andI fell it's fairly plausible:

These guys are using U.S.A. money to finance their staged relelase. They probably ran out of credit at the bank, maxed out everybody's CC's, and were looking at the black hole of zero release, anywhere, and years of work for nothing.

So, what do they do? Instead of giving up, they release the game, unfinished, to us in the U.S., thereby essentially getting us to finance the international release.

This buys them some time & some cash flow. They can then buy a month (which is what they've done) to complete the project more substantially. Gives them the abililty to relase a much better project internationally and come out in the black (not to mention likely saving face with U.S. consumers by releasing substantial patches).

This theory explains a ton to me. It explains why they would release such a thouroughly bug-infested clearly Beta program, and then say little about it (nor apologize for it). It's because they knew exactly what they were doing--they knew the fixes are coming down the road. However, if they admitted publicly that this was their strategy, the public likely would have given them the finger and let the project die.

What do you think of this theory?

[RitingFool]

Hmm...actually not a bad theory!

I HAVE been a bit dismayed that neither Chuk22 nor bgaum have said word one (that I'm aware of) since the announcement of patches 1.2 and 1.3 several weeks ago? Coincidence? I think not. And I don't really buy the "we're hard at work on the patches" theory.

Regards,
Michael

[Arath]

Not bad theory but its no use for them ... why? becose there are already revievs of this game in europe game in the curent state, buggy and unfinished so i doupt it whould help them much

[freshjuice]

You may be right ...certainly true that they'd been damaged by this worldwide already.

Having been a bit of an entrepreneur myself, I would say that cash flow issues can make one do strange things sometimes. I still could see that, when faced with the prospect of a dead project (& bankruptcy) vs. taking a spanking from reviews, but then making up for it later, I believe they'd choose the 2nd option.

If they release a fairly clean, patched game in Europe and elsewhere, then word would get around that it's much better now. "I'm feeling better!"

Of course, this is pure conjecture... I'm just trying to make sense out of what seems to be completely irrational behavior. :confused:

[Makkarune]

Hmmmm....you may very well be right. Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that rpg's are more popular in Europe and tend to sell better there. I have no factual substantiation for this -- I just seem to remember reading it. If that is the case, it would explain the U.S. beta we are experiencing here.

I really hope your theory is true so we can eventually get full patching.

[Shock]

Hmm...actually not a bad theory!

I HAVE been a bit dismayed that neither Chuk22 nor bgaum have said word one (that I'm aware of) since the announcement of patches 1.2 and 1.3 several weeks ago? Coincidence? I think not. And I don't really buy the "we're hard at work on the patches" theory.

Regards,
Michael


I'm telling you that I bet Dreamcatcher put a gag order on them.

If they can go ahead and patch this game now where future patches won't ruin our save games then go for it. I would rather one patch ruin a save game than like 3 or 4 because I understand that so much is missing from this game that it's hard to fix without ruining a saved game.

[Zyxial]

well I think this was prob the case... just it never feels good to be the guinea pig...

As far as European release being Damaged by the review... well there have been those games in the past that similar has happened to... The solution is easy, release as a different name or release with the Gold label attached to it. And I think the latter may happen here... the product released in UK will prob have a surname attached to it... Dungeon Lords Gold (platinum,silver, etc...).

The bad thing about this is... for you to have that here in the states... you'll have to patch or download the patches. And things will be included in European Release we can't even get with the patch and more than likely we will be forced to buy some expansion pack to get them. American Consumers tend to be a bit more stupid than our European brothers/sisters... I work weeekends at a gas station and have people ask me why gas prices are so high, look out at the pump they are on and see a Cadillac Escalade... and think what a moron.

[3days]

Basically no. CHUK and company ARE working hard on a 1.2 patch and it WILL be more extensive than what was previously discussed for 1.2. Both HP and DC are responsible companies and after the beta testing didnt realize the extent of the bugs. I can guarantee you that the majority of the concerns that were addressed ie the problems that pissed people off the most are being fixed and added to the game. I hope that some of the worst trolls are gone now and the gamers that will get the word out are still here. Actually I know this for a fact as my website is dedicated to the dungeon lords gamers that love the game and are adding content every day.
SO dont despair and no the game wasnt a beta for the other countries I know it was simply the case of a small pool of beta testers and not enough diversity in that pool of hardware and people that caused a premature release. It is a good game and still does have great potential. My only concern is that the one segment that they will neglect in 1.2 ie multi player is the one segment that can totally save the game and its future. If you know a dev or pub or moderator let them know as I have that multi is the way that this game will go back into the hearts and minds of the gaming public and actually make them real money and a solid overall game. AND stop selling for less than any other major title.

Zacho

[Mefi]

The theory only works if there is no word of mouth or, erm, internet to let us Europeans know the game has problems. The damage is done already, ****-up not conspiracy.

Fan mods may save the game, but I'm getting the feeling that the companies will be trying to limit their losses (like Atari and Troika) so I wouldn't expect too much more from them once Europe officially gets the game.

[Crazy Tom]

If anyone actually wanted to figure out if the theory was correct or not, the first place to look would be sales records. I'm sure there's some website out there somewhere that's recorded the sales of rpg video games, so it probably wouldn't be hard to figure out if Europe sells more of these than the US. But even if they do, the theory still leaves the obvious flaw of word of mouth ruining the Europe release anyways. Still, if it's between a poor release and no release at all, better to be poor than broke.

As for the one post saying that the US release wasn't a "beta run", I think you may be in denial. Yes, the game is still fun. Yes, it's still probably better than half the other games on the shelves right now. Despite all this, it's still definately in beta form. When you walk into an elven inn and find that not only is there no furniture, but there's also no way to rest at all, that means its beta. When a wizard (Emmindor I think his name was) tells you to "help yourself to scrolls and baubles downstairs" and you go downstairs to find another empty room with no goodies at all, that's when you know its beta. But the main thing that lets you know its beta... they are still patching it! Am I the only one who remembers back when there was no such thing as patches? Or when they were only made by "pirates" (ahh, the good old days when they called us pirates...)?

If you want to know the truth, you don't need a theory at all. The truth is obvious enough: whoever paid for this game was too impatient to wait for it to be finished, and they realized that if they just came back later and patched it, the gamers would just roll over and take it. You can blame the developers all you want, but the only reason that this sort of thing is tolerated is because we, the gamers, accept it.

[freshjuice]

Agree or disagree with the theory -- that's fine. You certainly won't offend me. :cool:

Just to clarify, however: I don't think the amount of sales outside the U.S.A. vs. inside has any bearing on whether or not the theory is valid. Nor did I ever doubt that the developers were working hard on patches. To the contrary: this theory assures they are working... very hard! (This is actually a very optimistic theory! This theory supposes the game is going to get much better due to patches, and fairly soon!) :)

All I'm suggesting is that, from my view, only one thing logically explains most everything about this game: Cash Flow.

To restate, this is the theory:
They ran out of cash. They needed cash. They couldn't get cash anywhere else (i.e. Banks were rejecting their loan applications, & D.W. had maxed all his Visas!). So they had only one option: get a cash loan...from us. Now that they have cash again, they are working to complete & release the game in the manner they clearly originally intended.


In this way they can salvage "some" profit and some "dignity," instead of the whole thing being a complete loss. (Which, if they were running out of money, it would have been.)

(Whether or not sales are better outside of the U.S. was kind of off track...my apologies for creating confusion by even bringing it up.)

And, just for the record, if, IF, this is what happened, then I am one who was gladly willing to make that loan. :D ...I just expect the return on my investment of a completed product. ;)

[Crazy Tom]

Checking sales wasn't about calling into question whether or not they needed money and couldn't get it any other way. The reason you'd check the sales is because, if they did need money, then where they released would matter a lot.

Basically, if they had run out of money and only needed another month to finish up, then they would probably release wherever they planned on making the least amount of money anyways. That way, the local word of mouth would have the least impact, and the finished product would still find its best reviews in the area where they planned to make the most many anyways.

So, if sales are higher in Europe, than releasing in the U.S. makes a lot of sense. However, if sales are higher in the U.S., then the "beta theory" suggests that they would release in Europe, saving the finished product for the American market instead... Well, that's what I'd like to pretend I would do. But I've never been in that situation, so maybe it's not as simple as it seems...

[freshjuice]

I wasn't referring to your post in particular. ;)

[Makkarune]

Basically, if they had run out of money and only needed another month to finish up, then they would probably release wherever they planned on making the least amount of money anyways. That way, the local word of mouth would have the least impact, and the finished product would still find its best reviews in the area where they planned to make the most many anyways.

So, if sales are higher in Europe, than releasing in the U.S. makes a lot of sense. .

This was my thinking too but you said it better.

[RitingFool]

Basically no. CHUK and company ARE working hard on a 1.2 patch and it WILL be more extensive than what was previously discussed for 1.2. Both HP and DC are responsible companies and after the beta testing didnt realize the extent of the bugs. I can guarantee you that the majority of the concerns that were addressed ie the problems that pissed people off the most are being fixed and added to the game. I hope that some of the worst trolls are gone now and the gamers that will get the word out are still here. Actually I know this for a fact as my website is dedicated to the dungeon lords gamers that love the game and are adding content every day.
SO dont despair and no the game wasnt a beta for the other countries I know it was simply the case of a small pool of beta testers and not enough diversity in that pool of hardware and people that caused a premature release. It is a good game and still does have great potential. My only concern is that the one segment that they will neglect in 1.2 ie multi player is the one segment that can totally save the game and its future. If you know a dev or pub or moderator let them know as I have that multi is the way that this game will go back into the hearts and minds of the gaming public and actually make them real money and a solid overall game. AND stop selling for less than any other major title.

Zacho

You speak like you know, as if your statements are fact. If so, how do you know? And are members of your website really adding content? How are they doing this? There's been no editing tools released that I'm aware of. And I'm afraid as far "making them real money", that dream is pretty much out the window. The reviews are out, word of mouth is out, and it's not good. People will come back and revisit it after all the patching is done, but by that time the game is in the bargain bin. And no company that I'm aware of marks their game prices back UP based on popularity.

If I misinterpreted parts of your post, please let me know.

Regards,
Michael

[Crazy Tom]

Now there's a sad thought... for all the flaws that this game's got right now, it really deserves better than to be tossed in with deer hunter and nascar games. The worst part about it is that the game industry is going to learn the wrong lesson from this tragedy. Instead of realizing that they shouldn't release games first and patch later, they will think that the problem was that DL tried something new and interesting.

It's gonna be another wave of repeat games, everyone desperately grasping for some franchise to revive. Before we know it, we'll have Tribes 4, 5, and 6, and Morrowind 5-13. I've got nothing against revisiting old worlds (Fallout is a perfect example), but doesn't it seem like the only stuff that doesn't need patching anymore is the repeats? Why's it so hard for someone to create an original game without having it blow up in their face?

[freshjuice]

I think what happens tomorrow will be a good indicator of what we can expect in the future .... *crossing fingers*

[Crazy Tom]

Is something supposed to happen tomorrow, or is that just wishful thinking? I'm not sure I'm actually even looking forward to the next patch coming soon, since I've only just started a couple days ago, and I'm not really looking forward to remaking a character.

[RitingFool]

Is something supposed to happen tomorrow, or is that just wishful thinking? I'm not sure I'm actually even looking forward to the next patch coming soon, since I've only just started a couple days ago, and I'm not really looking forward to remaking a character.

Patch 1.2 is "due" tomorrow, if they stick to the schedule in one of the stickyed threads.

I for one am doubting it, but we'll see.

Regards,
Michael

[freshjuice]

Is something supposed to happen tomorrow, or is that just wishful thinking? I'm not sure I'm actually even looking forward to the next patch coming soon, since I've only just started a couple days ago, and I'm not really looking forward to remaking a character.

Somebody's in a smart-aleck mood tonight, eh? ;)

Their sticky in this forum says two weeks ago Friday that a patch is due in two weeks.

Which is why I said, tomorrow will say alot. If they stick to their timetable, then I believe we can expect them to continue to do so and continue patching regularly.

If, on the other hand, they blow it off or shift the release date for a patch again, then I think we're all S.O.L.

[Shock]

Lost character saves are inevitable. Everyone needs to realize that right now and just suck it up. It comes down to: Do you want the game fixed or not?

[freshjuice]

Based upon what I'm reading about the current German patch being released, this theory is seeming a bit more plausible to me.

[Tonedeff]

Its a possible theory but it would be great if they delay the patch and make patch 1.2 with automap and charachter customization. I think we can wait atleast I can.

[freshjuice]

German patch 1.3 is now released coinciding almost perfectly with the new game release there.

In my mind, this theory is now confirmed.

I don't know whether to be upset at DC for suckering me into a no-interest loan, or to admire the suits in DC's finance office for such brilliant cash-flow trickery.

Very creative financing, indeed.

[Shock]

So, I wonder what the Germans think of the game after release?

[Tuskil]

I like the game.