Who's At Fault ?? Vote Here !

[NTJedi]

One question which has been pondering the minds.... is who is at fault for the unfinished DungeonLords game.
Did the developers have enough time to finish yet were slacking/sleeping until the last 3 weeks before release ?
OR
Did the publisher not give the developers enough time to finish thus leaving the unfortunate developers with an impossible schedule and deadline ?
OR
Was the game released in good enough condition for the public?


I believe only the developers know the truth down deep in their heart if they were working hard or not from beginning until end.

But this is just to see a POLL to view who the gamers feel is at fault.

[chamr]

Dude. You need to add an option for "Both the developer and the publisher", since that's the most likely scenerio. I'm sure both of them did plenty wrong.

[WharGoul]

Dude. You need to add an option for "Both the developer and the publisher", since that's the most likely scenerio. I'm sure both of them did plenty wrong.

How could it be both ??
No developer in their right mind would release a game in this condition unless they are forced to.
DW even did a patch for Wizards & Warriors on their own $ not funded by the publisher, he @ least has proven that he cares..
DC on the other hand..

[chamr]

How could it be both ??
No developer in their right mind would release a game in this condition unless they are forced to.
DW even did a patch for Wizards & Warriors on their own $ not funded by the publisher, he @ least has proven that he cares..
DC on the other hand..

It could be HP's fault as well as DC's for the simple fact that they had a deadline (multiple, in fact) to develop to and failed to make the right decisions, plan and execute properly to have a complete product out by the time they said they would.

It's not like DC said to HP, "oh, you can have the game out whenever you want. We'll keep throwing money at you until you're done" and then came back later and said "surprise! we need the game out next month. done or not." I'm sure HP was very, very clear on when DC expected them to have the game out. They even gave them at least one hefty (on the order of 6 month) extension, and maybe even more. The developer needs to take responsibility for not being able to manage their project to a timetable. Simple as that.

[Brainsic]

I would definately say both. They have had ample time. As many have mentioned,there are mods of games,bigger,better,and done for free in peoples spare time. This type of thing shouldnt happen.

[TipicalMail]

I'd say 9 out of 10 times most fault will be with the publisher. They are usually the ones who fund most of the project. If the project goes over budget or over schedule they'll usually force shipment in hopes to cut their losses or to meet a release date that will maximize sales.

It's usually not an intention to screw the developers or the gamers, it's just a fact of business. It sucks and I think everyone, DC, HP, and the gamers got screwed with DL.

All I can say is that at least they are working on a patch that will hopefully fix all the major issues and that they are taking their time to try to do it right. There are several games I still haven't been able to play even after several patches have come out.

[Velvet]

Speculation of what was whose fault is completely irrelevant, since there are is no real information available.

[Exodia]

We will most likely never know who is at fault, because if fault was declared, and they apalogized for lying, or anything of that sort, it would lay an opening for the first class action law suit in the gaming industry. At least that I know of, or if a lawyer purchased this game.... that could also mean a lawsuit, lol, but that will never happen, because nobody will say that they lied, or made a transaction with us under false pretense or something like that.

[ashley_green]

I think you'll find the publisher NEEDED tha game to be relaeased and they were counting( maybe hopping is a better word) that the pacth would be quiclky release and fix all our problems. From my personnal business experience I am sure they (the publisher) knew it was NOT complete and factoring in the patch decided to release the game early.

What they didnt allow for is the delays and obvious diffuclty there has been in trying to patch a released product.

Little blame can be directed at the developers as they propably had a contarct hanging over their heads that gave them very little say in when and how the game was released

[Radyk]

Do you all remember what happen to Virgin Games and Interplay games?
I had friends that worked in both production and developing.
I know what they would say "But Boss (puplisher)...That's not enough time"

nuff said
p.s
Here's Byron Gaum (bgaum) number
at 416-638-5000 Ext. 306,

[darktau]

Heck even we (the consumer) are partly to blame for putting pressure to get the games out, then complaining when it is not exactly what everyone wants. Do not try and deny it after all demand is what drives the market, and consumers make the demand.

[Shock]

I think both parties are at fault, but the game was obviously not tested very well and the effort put into it over the last 3-5 years was lazy. The developer (HP) dropped the ball on those two items.

[Arttiss]

A developer would not release... they would delay.

A publisher would not delay... they would release.

So... from the above ideology, I conclude.... Publisher is to blame. Seeing the game was already delayed, sounds like the publisher just wanted to cut the losses and see what happens... this is just my guess though.

[Cleric]

I'd have to agree with the missing "Both are at Fault" choice.

I'm sure there was a deadline by when the game had to be done. I'm equally sure that the Developers knew what that deadline was from the beginning.

As stated, the Publisher did push back the release by six month's, giving the Developers more time to finish things up.

On the other hand, I'm sure the Publisher saw how unfinished a product they had been sent when they finally got the game. Yet they made the decision to release it anyway and tried to answer complaints with senseless doubletalk about how the missing elements were really intentionally left out.

So as I said originally, Both are at fault.

[ArimusDarkwater]

Do you all remember what happen to Virgin Games and Interplay games?
I had friends that worked in both production and developing.
I know what they would say "But Boss (puplisher)...That's not enough time"

nuff said
p.s
Here's Byron Gaum (bgaum) number
at 416-638-5000 Ext. 306,


I have to disagree with you on this one.

This is how I see it. The publisher comes to the development team and says we would like to make this game. The Dev's say ok we can accomplish every thing you ask for this $ amount and this estimated set time. Publishers ok it's a deal lets begin this puppy. Deadline shows up and low and behold the Dev's did not make the deadline in time so publisher ok lets extend for another 6 months will that do? Dev's oh that will be plenty you will not be dissappointed. 6 months later still no go, Pub's to Dev's you promised us it would be ready we have put money up front out of our pockets for 3 years on this game, what's going on? Dev's sorry but were were evidently just not good enough to accomlish what we promised we are really close on alot of it but there are a few dozen quirks not really essential to the game we don't have. Pub's well we are out of money if we put it out now so we can draw some more revenue, do you think you will be able to patch the deficientcies in good fashion. Dev's absolutely you can count on us! But as we have seen we can't count on them it is going on 2 months will still no patch, though the DEV'S and Yes I mean DEV's are the ones who have been telling us deadlines they can't meet. I mean it has been 6 weeks since they said patch 1.2 will be ready in 2 weeks.

SO for those who say there isn't enough information to make this decision, just look at the LIES and missed DEADLINES the Dev's have giving us in the last 2 months. Do you really think it was any different of the LIES and missed DEADLINES that they told to the Publisher's.

Publishers are the money , and like we all know money does not grow on tree's they need to cover their cost and losses to survive. Honestly you can't exp[ect someone to keep forking out money on Broken Promises, Lies and missed DEADLINES!

Well that is just my 2 cents thanks for sticking with me while I vented I really needed it!

[knightley_]

I absolutely agree with ArimusDarkwater. In game industry the deadline and milesstones are decided by both the Developer and Publisher together. (in Dungeon Lords' case HP and DC) If a game is not finished on time, it is mostly likely the developer is being lazy or they misjudged their working progress terribly. There could of course be other problems, e.g.: loss of key employee (say the lead programer), a virus destroyed all the files... However in those cases something is terribly wrong INSIDE the dev. team.

As far as i know Dungeon Lords' Deadline is already delayed several times, so i don't think DC pushing too hard is why the game is released in such a terrible state.

Actually i think the publisher's problem is not pushing too hard and not be able to find a solution after it became clear that DL could not be finished in time, besides delaying the release date.

And I am very very curious about who is the guy who came up with all those intelligence insulting statements.
-We disabled the automap course it is more fun.
-We would add automap as an additional feature in feature patch (so be
thankful)
-We give you a game guide for free. (Well i stumbeld upon game banshee's
dungeon lords game guide weeks ago before the DC announcement)
-We are testing 1.3 and it contains all features in 1.2

I was actually thinking i would hear another statement 2 year later
-We are testing patch 234, all features in the previous patch are included.
Of course there were not a single patch after 1.1. :p

----------------------------------------------------
P.S.: I am a huge Bradley fan. bought almost every wizardry game, have 3 different versions of Wizardry 7 incl. the windows version. Very disappoint with DL.

[POQWAD]

P.S.: I am a huge Bradley fan. bought almost every wizardry game, have 3 different versions of Wizardry 7 incl. the windows version. Very disappoint with DL.

K-Ley...how true.

I first played Wizardry 1 on the NES. And promptly got my butt kicked in that starter dungeon by Murphy's Ghost. The "walls" were just lines.

And I too have multiple copies of Wiz 7. A terrific game. And I too was a Bradley fan.

In fact, I only purchased DL BECAUSE his name was on the box cover. I figured I was in for a real treat.


...sadly, I figured wrong...

And that, for me, has been the most disappointing aspect of this entire fiasco

[Sigarr]

My,My, how "Speculation" on whose Fault it is runs rampant. I have already posted in several threads EXACTLY how the Process Works in the Gaming Industry. IF you are interested do a search and look it up-If not,then "Speculate" Away!

And Yes,contrary to one post, there IS Ample evidence to make a "Reasonable" conclusion as to whose Fault it is that Dungeon Lords got Released in such an Unfinished Condition.

[POQWAD]

Sigarr is correct.

[txa1265]

I have been following this game since before E3 of 2004, so I've definitely been anticipating it's arrival ... looked at it as hopefully 'the next Gothic'.

It is fair to say that I'm disappointed. I haven't removed the game from my system, but I also haven't touched it in weeks. I did enjoy the game, logging over 100 hours in my runs through it. I will play some more after the patch(es) come out, and will hopefully get many more hours out of it - and hopefully it will evolve into a solid 80% game. But none of that changes my disappointment in the game as it shipped and I first played.

As for who is at fault, I blame:
- Myself: I should know better.
- DreamCatcher: They, as publisher, should be looking to publish as good a game as possible, regardless of timing. If there was an impasse where contractual issues were in play, they should have re-negotiated themselves.
- Heuristic Park & DWB: because, of course, DWB *is* the driving force of HP. And as a veteran game designer, he should have known better ... been better able to estimate, and so on. Stuff we heard was in the works, or that there were assets ready for, we will likely never see. It is a shame, as this game that could have been very good, turned out as a landmark to unfinished games, and will likely end DWB's career ... or at least any influence or positive karma has had left from Wiz7.

Mike

[tardis44]

Being in the work force for the last 25 years(Mostly the Tech area). I have been able to see what happens with any Tech project that comes down the pipe.In recent years the focus of upper management is to cut as thin as possible in order to create bigger profit margins. The blame is solely on the Upper management stucture.They make the decisions to rush out a piece of crap and fix it later.Only a few companys try to avoid this like Blizzard and EA.Not to be preachy but this is a big problem in business and why the US will lose its edge in the intl. market. greed is good for business but not the mindless greed you see in the managment structure these daysi

[Makkarune]

I always thought HP dragged their heels and DC finally got fed up and pushed the release, as do a lot of people.

But to be fair to DC, I don't think they anticipated the outpouring of protest they got from the rpg community. I believe it is their first foray into the rpg genre and I don't think they really understood what a picky, fussy bunch we can be. There have been some very bad adventure games released over the years with barely a whimper of protest. Most adventure gamers (DC's primary genre focus) are a very accepting lot and will play very bad releases without complaining.

I think DC knew it wasn't in the greatest shape and wouldn't be game of the year, but I think they thought we'd just accept it. Most of the recently released adventure titles don't get reviewed very positively anyway, so I don't think they feared poor reviews.

My real question....why DID it take HP so long to complete this thing? It's a pretty straightforward, no bells and whistles rpg and they had lots of time. I have never understood that.

[Xyyth]

It is fair to say that I'm disappointed. I haven't removed the game from my system, but I also haven't touched it in weeks. I did enjoy the game, logging over 100 hours in my runs through it. I will play some more after the patch(es) come out,

100 hours? My condolences for spending that much time with this broken game. I don't think I touched it past 8-10 hours of play. The missing elements, bugs, and the stutter that left random encounters at no surprise got old after a while. I will reinstall once the new patch is released.

Interest in this product is starting to wane, I'm afraid. I hope they do something for the consumers soon.

[Xyyth]

As for who is at fault, I blame:
- Myself: I should know better.
- DreamCatcher: They, as publisher, should be looking to publish as good a game as possible, regardless of timing. If there was an impasse where contractual issues were in play, they should have re-negotiated themselves.
- Heuristic Park & DWB: because, of course, DWB *is* the driving force of HP. And as a veteran game designer, he should have known better ... been better able to estimate, and so on. Stuff we heard was in the works, or that there were assets ready for, we will likely never see. It is a shame, as this game that could have been very good, turned out as a landmark to unfinished games, and will likely end DWB's career ... or at least any influence or positive karma has had left from Wiz7.
Mike

There were a few comments I wanted to make in reference to what Mike wrote above.

1. As consumers, we should always be aware of public reaction before we spend our money on something. However, for game reviewers (who consumers turn to), this usually isn't an option. It's a job (or hobby) hazard. You must get the games and play them in order to review them so other consumers know what the score is. Everyone should be going to review sites or the websites of any game that is released and look at initial 1st & 2nd day reactions before plopping your money down for it, unless you can afford to do so and wasting the money on a "bomb" doesn't bother you. You should especially do this with games that you aren't quite sure of before you purchase.

2. To me, Dreamcatcher seems to be riding the wave of "Painkiller". That seems to be their most successful game to date with the rest not being so hot. I'm not sure why Dreamcatcher wants to associate themselves with a long list of substandard, low selling products, but I would imagine that stems from poor choices made in the corporate offices. The success or failure of a business begin with the policies that originate from upper level management, including how they honestly or dishonestly choose to deal with their customers.

3. All of us are not stupid. You can tell when someone is just riding the wave of their past achievements in order to get interviews and such. DW Bradley is riding the wave of the past. Like someone said a while back, "what have you done for us lately"? W&W was a release disaster. DL is a release disaster. A lot of the DW Bradley interviews I have read regarding Dungeon Lords is laughable considering that most of the things talked about were elements that weren't even included in the game release. To me, it seems Mr. Bradley is more concerned about keeping his name "trademarked" through meaningless interviews and broken promises. We all know this person through past Wizardry titles but he is not the only one to work on those titles. We do not know this man personally and we do not know his personal integrity or morals enough to raise him on a pedistal and believe everything he has to say. He is just a "trademark" name that we have conditioned ourselves to expect great things from. In a sense, that way of thinking is also our fault.

In the end, I hope this game can be fixed well enough to make me, the reviewers, and everyone complaining to eat their words. I really do.

[Xyyth]

After yesterday's patch, I felt like I got an hor'dourve but I didn't know it took over a month to make an hor'dourve.

[Xyyth]

After yesterday's patch, I felt like I got a tasty hor'dourve but I didn't know it took over a month to make an hor'dourve.

[Xyyth]

Ack! Lag city.

[POQWAD]

Nothin' like a tasty chicken lag, thigh'd say... :)

[White Wolf]

I always thought HP dragged their heels and DC finally got fed up and pushed the release, as do a lot of people.

But to be fair to DC, I don't think they anticipated the outpouring of protest they got from the rpg community. I believe it is their first foray into the rpg genre and I don't think they really understood what a picky, fussy bunch we can be. There have been some very bad adventure games released over the years with barely a whimper of protest. Most adventure gamers (DC's primary genre focus) are a very accepting lot and will play very bad releases without complaining.

I think DC knew it wasn't in the greatest shape and wouldn't be game of the year, but I think they thought we'd just accept it. Most of the recently released adventure titles don't get reviewed very positively anyway, so I don't think they feared poor reviews.

My real question....why DID it take HP so long to complete this thing? It's a pretty straightforward, no bells and whistles rpg and they had lots of time. I have never understood that.




If the developers would have gotten on their game they would hace been done before the deadline just like other games have. Look at EA Sports when they set a deadline it gets met and the patches for the flaws are out with in 2 weeks to a month

[Shock]

What gets me is that I can't believe anyone playtested this game. There is no way in H3LL

[ldonyo]

If the developers would have gotten on their game they would hace been done before the deadline just like other games have. Look at EA Sports when they set a deadline it gets met and the patches for the flaws are out with in 2 weeks to a month

According to the lawsuit filed by several current and former EA employees, EA is able to do this by requiring the programmers to work like slaves for months on end. Then, of course, EA shuts down the studio where those people worked and lays them off, all but killing support for the game at the same time.

[Xyyth]

The "head honchos" at Electronic Arts are a bunch of ruthless individuals. I saw an interview one time with two of their founders and their personalities reminded me of hitmen. They will do anything and everything to suck up all these little successful companies like the borg. Look what they did to Richard Garriott and the Origin Series, Westwood Studios, Maxis, etc. I think the only original company founder that got to keep his job was the one for Maxis and that's the only exception.