Human nature most corrupt

[GeorgeKeith]

Across America, millions of people are responding to the devastation of Hurricane Katrina by opening up their hearts and checkbooks to help those in need. Across the Gulf Coast area, volunteers and rescue workers are responding to the horror by working around the clock, some risking their lives to pluck victims from rooftops and rivers.

And then there are those in New Orleans itself who, confronted by the devastation, reacted in a way that reminds us, not of the fearful power of Mother Nature, but the tragic depths of human nature: They stole everything that was not tied down.

These were scenes that made me shake my head in disbelief: Looters casually filling plastic bags, shopping carts, even handtrucks with loot, all in clear view of their neighbors, the media, even National Guardsmen.

What hit me like a punch wasn't the looting itself as much as it was the attitude of the looters. Reporters challenged them, asking the thieves and thugs if it was their own stuff they were taking, and the looters just laughed.

One man, who had about 10 pairs of jeans draped over his left arm, was asked if he was salvaging things from his store.

"No," the man shouted, "that's EVERYBODY'S store."

Moms and their kids lugged cases of beer and soda out of a grocery store, smiling at the TV cameras they passed. Men with bundles of clothes lumbered nonchalantly out of stores on Canal Street in the French Quarter, while others busted out windows to grab "emergency essentials" like jewelry and luggage.

Where were the cops, you ask? According to the New Orleans Times-Picayune website, they were at the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, helping themselves to computers and flat screen televisions.

A crowd in the electronics section said one officer broke the glass DVD case so thieving teenagers wouldn't cut themselves. "The police got all the best stuff. They're crookeder than us," one man groused to the press.

One looter, 25-year-old Toni Williams, shrugged when confronted by a reporter as she loaded up with stolen supplies. "It must be legal," she said. "The police are here taking stuff, too."

The more I watched, the more stunned and angry I became. The more I listened, the more outraged I felt?as when Louisiana Sen. Mary Landrieu defended those people looting stores of food and water ("That's understandable," she told MSNBC). Instead of condemning this opportunistic thievery outright, this Democratic Senator urged Louisiana's looters to "use good judgment."

What does that mean? Only steal from working people?

One news story quoted a local named Mike Franklin, who stood nearby and watched the looters' progress. "To be honest with you, people who are oppressed all their lives, man, it's an opportunity to get back at society," he said.

Again and again as I watched these sickening images of brazen looting from an American city, I asked myself: Who ARE these people? Who are these pathetic losers who raise little kids to be lookouts while they steal and teach him the phrase "86" to warn of approaching police? Who are these people who, surrounded by the bravery of law enforcement and rescue workers in the midst of a crisis, choose to give into their lowest, most base selves? Who is this Mike Franklin who excuses this shameful theft and thuggery as a legitimate response to "oppression?"

"Get back at society?" You mean the society that gives you, for free, 12 years of education? Whose cops patrol your streets and whose taxpayers provide billions in welfare payments, health care and other benefits? Not to mention billions in FEMA money? Is that the "oppressive society" you have in mind?

Because, speaking as a member of the oppressing class, I want my stuff back. The jeans and the computers and the beer and the chips? I want the selfish dirtbags who stole it to bring it all back. I want their ingratitude acknowledged and their shameful acts undone.

Because the store whose doors they kicked in did not belong to "everybody." Those stores, and the products for sale on their shelves, represented work. They represented investment and sacrifice and saving and risk-taking, all to build a successful business that one day would face the unavoidable devastation of a hurricane and the unforgivable destruction committed by their fellow human beings.

It's offensive to hear anyone, from a US Senator to a street-cruising sneak-thief defend this looting as legitimate. This thievery was not inevitable and it's not excusable.

My family and I were in Richmond, VA in September 2003 when Hurricane Isabelle hit and knocked out power and water for more than a week. Like hundreds of thousands of others with rotting food in our fridge and thirsty kids at home, we had to stand in hours-long lines for water and ice just to get by and we did.

No riots, not stealing, no jumping the ice truck and trying to hijack it. Just people standing in line waiting their turn. Why couldn't that be New Orleans?

I believe the looting occurred because of what President Bush calls the "soft bigotry of low expectations." When a US Senator excuses your crimes and a neighbor can explain it as a sociological reaction, then why not? Why not steal? Why not (as occurred in New Orleans) shoot a fellow looter for getting better stuff than you? Or why not (as also happened) shoot a cop in the head for trying to stop the looting?

If you live in a community whose culture celebrates lawbreaking, and your neighbors and leaders expect no better from you, it must be awfully tempting to give in.

In many parts of America, a rising tide like the one in New Orleans would bring out the best, the most generous, and the most responsible elements in the human character. For whatever reason, the culture of New Orleans' inner city instead brought out the very worst.

Insurance companies are talking about $25 billion in damages from Hurricane Katrina. But the damage to the image of the American character may be far more destructive than that.

[Visigoth]

In response to the President's call for a probe into the failure to provide timely support... a call for mirrors:

I'm going to pickup a small hand mirror, wrap it nicely for shipping and address it:

President Bush
ATTN: Katrina relief response failure probe: EVIDENCE (FRAGILE).
The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
NW Washington, DC 20500

Maybe a note in the box along the lines of: This evidence can be used by most high administration, DHS, and FEMA officials to identify guilty parties in the failure of the Katrina response which has cost thousands of American lives. It will be most accurate when used correctly by the 'Commander in Chief'.

[Aphrodite1]

Well said, both of you. I am sickened both by the failure of my government to respond in a timely manner, and sickened and disheartened to see my fellow Americans in New Orleans debasing themselves as common trash. Unfortunately, its that very response that in the end, politicians will use to justify their inaction.

I see news stories of people helping each other, my local red cross has already raised 30 million last I checked, celebrities have personally donated millions as well as some like John Travolta bringing in tangible goods such as the 5 tons of food, water and blankets he brought in. My heart swells with pride of being American when I see my countrymen pull together to bring support and relief to those left with nothing. But at the same time, my heart is heavy with shame of being American while politicians who count votes for their party before mounting relief. We sent disaster aid to everywhere else much quicker than we did to our own people. But let me guess... New Orleans voted Democrat, didn't it...

[POQWAD]

Early in the aftermath of the hurricane, Wal-Mart sent several trucks loaded with bottled water to New Orleans.

FEMA turned them away.

Bush said nobody knew the levees would break.

Many reports, some dating back years, warned that this scenerio was GOING to happen. He diverted funds the Army Corps of Engineers needed to repair and fortify the levees to his "War on Terrorism".

He is an unmittigated total disaster of a President. But at least he's gonna see to it that Trent Lott's house is rebuilt even grander than it was before the hurricane.

But hey, I guess that's what friends are for. < Insert eyeroll here >

[GeorgeKeith]

Mr. B was the guy that sat for 7 minutes in a classroom before responding after being informed of the 911 disaster! Did I vote for him? I will never tell who I voted for because often times it tends to be embarrassing.

[Aphrodite1]

Did I vote for him? I will never tell who I voted for because often times it tends to be embarrassing.

I can definately relate to that!

:rofl: !!

[phalzyr]

I can proudly say no :D and really can't understand why anyone did, but... I don't normally vote but I just had to vote against him... I guess he was really good at pulling the wool over peoples eyes. Though to be honest I can't say anyone else would of been better with how politiians act... I won't go into the way this government is run or I'll be ranting more than I did about DL :)

[Aphrodite1]

I fully support our concept of government actually. It's the people who misinterpret that screw it up, not the intent itself.

[Shock]

I don't normally vote but I just had to vote against him

The next time we get two inferior candidates put on our voting platter, just write in Dungeon Lords and hope it wins. It has about the same effect as your skewed personal voting system.

[phalzyr]

my system is screwed? One post with little detail is enough for you to calculate that? You are trully.... I normally don't vote because I don't follow the politicians enough to decide which is better. Enough to find out they are the sameo sameo type of politician and anything they say is pretty meaningless. So I don't vote because neither really deserve to win. In bush's case though I made an exception because I think he is the worst politician yet, the things he done... Well I won't go into why I dislike how he used the presidency here that would be one long boring post.

You know, shock, before you make an opinnion you should get some details and facts. I'm not going to write everythign about my life in one post if you need clarification ask. If you take on your voting procedures the way you post on forums your system is way more screwed than mine.

What I hate most, about the whole voting process, is voters that if you ask why they voted for soemone would have a long empty silence. People that want to vote just for voting sake, no reall INFORMED opinnion of who is the better candidate.

[Shock]

my system is screwed?

You know, shock, before you make an opinnion you should get some details and facts. I'm not going to write everythign about my life in one post if you need clarification ask.
Skewed, not screwed.

skew ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sky)
v. skewed, skew·ing, skews
v. intr.
To take an oblique course or direction.
To look obliquely or sideways.

v. tr.
To turn or place at an angle.
To give a bias to; distort.

adj.
Placed or turned to one side; asymmetrical.
Distorted or biased in meaning or effect.
Having a part that diverges, as in gearing.


I will make you a deal. You get some details and facts on the candidates before you vote and in return I'll get some detail and facts before I blast your skewed voting system.

[phalzyr]

Skewed, not screwed.

Yes i knew you used skewed... does that mean I can't use a differenent term meaning the same thing in the context you used it? OK replace screwed in my above post with distorted if you like...

I will make you a deal. You get some details and facts on the candidates before you vote and in return I'll get some detail and facts before I blast your skewed voting system.

Didn't I say that is what i do already IF I vote? I guess we have a deal then :rolleyes:

[Shock]

You seem really defensive and self-conscious. Are you going to survive the day?

[Artas1984]

I understand that in times of trouble bad people in NewOrl show their true nature by making chaos and crimes, but i will never understand american soldiers those are allowed to shoot people just for nothing and everywere - in Iraq, in NewOrl, but most in countrys like Iraq, where they have no right to be there.
Fuk this Bush! Pydar jybanuty! Otsos jybany!

[Shock]

I weep for the future of the world with bigotry like that. Like someone said earlier, why don't you go talk to an Iraqi about it. It affects them more than it does you.

[phalzyr]

You seem really defensive and self-conscious. Are you going to survive the day?

hmmm so continuing our discussion(i.e. posting my opinnions) is defensive/self-conscious and a bad thing? So what does that make you? a hypocrit...

I weep for the future of the world with bigotry like that. Like someone said earlier, why don't you go talk to an Iraqi about it. It affects them more than it does you.

I weep for the future with ignorance like that.

So why don't you talk to those we claimed war against? Who is Bush to decide who the good guys and bad guys are? Hitler was obviously doing stuff wrong trying to take over the world kind of stuff, but everyone we declared war on since WW2 is gray area. In our own history the north fought against the south for human rights. Should another country of came in and helped?

Maybe you should go over to Iraq and see what is really going on rather than believing the US Hype. In US news report will never say the really bad things we do/happened over there, they'd be out of buisness before you know it. You'll hear very little details about it a long time down the road, if at all, when no one is listening any more/already made thier opinnions.

OH well it is pointless talking to someone with blinders on.

[Shock]

hmmm so continuing our discussion(i.e. posting my opinnions) is defensive/self-conscious and a bad thing? So what does that make you? a hypocrit...


Do you even know what that word means or do I need to look that up for you too? There is a difference between posting opinions and talking gibberish to try to justify yourself.


OH well it is pointless talking to someone with blinders on.

Buh Bye. It's about time you gave up.

[Super Smurf]

hmmm so continuing our discussion(i.e. posting my opinnions) is defensive/self-conscious and a bad thing? So what does that make you? a hypocrit...



I weep for the future with ignorance like that.

So why don't you talk to those we claimed war against? Who is Bush to decide who the good guys and bad guys are? Hitler was obviously doing stuff wrong trying to take over the world kind of stuff, but everyone we declared war on since WW2 is gray area. In our own history the north fought against the south for human rights. Should another country of came in and helped?

Maybe you should go over to Iraq and see what is really going on rather than believing the US Hype. In US news report will never say the really bad things we do/happened over there, they'd be out of buisness before you know it. You'll hear very little details about it a long time down the road, if at all, when no one is listening any more/already made thier opinnions.

OH well it is pointless talking to someone with blinders on.

Good advice, unfortunately for you the reality of the situation is the US news makes the situation in Iraq out to be worse than it is. I'm the one who said go talk to an Iraqi. I've been there, I have talked to them. I have Friends who are there now and others that are home that hve been there as recently as months ago. That's where I get my Iraqi news. Where do you get your information?

[Visigoth]

Fuk this Bush! Pydar jybanuty! Otsos jybany!

Huh?? Speak English.... EEEEENNNNGGGLISHHH.

[Visigoth]

hmmm so continuing our discussion(i.e. posting my opinnions) is defensive/self-conscious and a bad thing? So what does that make you? a hypocrit...



I weep for the future with ignorance like that.

So why don't you talk to those we claimed war against? Who is Bush to decide who the good guys and bad guys are? Hitler was obviously doing stuff wrong trying to take over the world kind of stuff, but everyone we declared war on since WW2 is gray area. In our own history the north fought against the south for human rights. Should another country of came in and helped?

Maybe you should go over to Iraq and see what is really going on rather than believing the US Hype. In US news report will never say the really bad things we do/happened over there, they'd be out of buisness before you know it. You'll hear very little details about it a long time down the road, if at all, when no one is listening any more/already made thier opinnions.

OH well it is pointless talking to someone with blinders on.


Oh... I dunno.. wholesale genocide of the Kurds counts as a bad thing to me.

[Aphrodite1]

My former stepson was there in Iraq for a year. He says that while they get the occasional person who is happy to see them (americans of any type soldier or otherwise) that by far most either are hostile or apathetic.

I've also gotta say that we are indeed kept in the dark by our newscasts. When I got married and moved to Canada, and started watching newscasts from other countries, I couldnt believe how much stuff was going on that had never occurred to me. I mean I had realized already that there were no WMD and we only went there to steal oil, but I hadnt realized just how much of the world's animosity towards us was our own fault.

It takes cahones to invade a country stating a reason, be proved a liar so then change the real reason why you're there, make up reasons why you need to be the ones controlling THAT country's oil, make up reasons why you will tyranically forcefeed our way of life on those iraqui's regardless of how they feel, make up more reasons of why we just cant leave, spend more and more of our tax dollars and the lives of our sons and daughters to keep your lies alive... and then have the audacity to hum and haw when a natural disaster considered the largest in our history hits our own oil sources, and people, and one of the oldest historical places in our history...

Wow.. takes cahones...

I've never been ashamed to be an American. When I married a Canadian, I refused to give up my citizenship because being an American meant something.

But now... we're no better than those we fought to escape during colonization. Calling it the war on terror or a preemptive strike doesnt change what it is.. a tyrannical bid to forcefeed 'democracy', probably religion, and steal THEIR natural resources.

Being a world power.. being one of the richest/strongest/whatever.. means little when you alienate the whole planet as we've done and continue to do. Just because we "can" kick a$$ does NOT mean we should. As for why he's still in power.. it's because too many of my kin are sheep who believe all the subtle propaganda we are fed and are happy he had a valid response to 9-11 and wanted to reward that/continue to feel safe.

Oh, and lest we forget.. While he was giving interviews extolling how awesome he is and the help he was going to send to New Orleans and other affected areas... Survivers were dying. Premature infants were dying in hospitals because battery powered generators just gave out after waiting days for help. Eldery and sick died because their critical care units had no power to run the machines, power the paddles, and pump the air to their lungs. Diabetics and Asthmatics died because their medication was washed away and new meds were 'en route' for 4 days. People starved on their rooftops, unable to reach food, water, or shelter because while the troops 'are plenty for rescue efforts as well as staying in iraq' were 'en route' police officers had to stop rescue operations to stop looting.

Gimme a break... I can fly to EUROPE in under a day. But we cant figure out a way to send freaking food to our own starving citizens in under 4 days?!?!

[Super Smurf]

Hmm, I guess all those Iraqis lining the roads during our advance cheering, women weeping with joy, giving us gestures of blessing, trying to give us anything they had of value in thanks were all just figments of my imagination then. Sure it's 2 years later and they are not cheering in the streets anymore, and as I said before they do get frustrated at times because maybe they thought things would progress a little faster, but they still appreciate what we did and what we are trying to accomplish. Go ahead and ask an Iraqi if they'd rather have Saddam or us. Really I dare you. And we are not force-feeding our way of life to them. We are letting them draft their own constitution with a committee elected by their people. We didn't tell them who to vote for, and we're not telling them how to write their constitution.

[tetsuo666]

Hmm, I guess all those Iraqis lining the roads during our advance cheering, women weeping with joy, giving us gestures of blessing, trying to give us anything they had of value in thanks were all just figments of my imagination then. Sure it's 2 years later and they are not cheering in the streets anymore, and as I said before they do get frustrated at times because maybe they thought things would progress a little faster, but they still appreciate what we did and what we are trying to accomplish. Go ahead and ask an Iraqi if they'd rather have Saddam or us. Really I dare you. And we are not force-feeding our way of life to them. We are letting them draft their own constitution with a committee elected by their people. We didn't tell them who to vote for, and we're not telling them how to write their constitution.

well i wonder where all this suicide bombers and kidnappings come from if the people there are so happy about the occupation....
and why the iraq ,isnt kim ill sung in north korea way more dangerous .he really has weapons of mass destruction not some entirely fictitious ones these a real! and he threatens to use them if neccesary.why not play world police there? is it maybe because there are no interesting ressources there? this war is based on lies to usurp Iraq’s oil resources thats the truth.
the elections in Iraq is somewhere between a charade and a cruel joke. the sunnits are all but guaranteed to boycott the process, only american-approved candidates where running, and the whole thing is a setup to legitimize a government that in the eyes of almost all iraqis has no legitimacy at all. it’s an invitation to civil war!

[Shock]

I have a solution that will make you non-Americans happy. Let's pull our troops out and let Saddam have his country back so the suicide bombings will stop.

Yes, that seems to be the most rational solution. Then we can just be concerned with ourselves and leave all you touchy countries alone.

Have a good day. :)

[mollly_red]

I have a solution that will make you non-Americans happy. Let's pull our troops out and let Saddam have his country back so the suicide bombings will stop.

Yes, that seems to be the most rational solution. Then we can just be concerned with ourselves and leave all you touchy countries alone.

Have a good day. :)

thats the answer i expected from a moron like you...

[Shock]

thats the answer i expected from a moron like you...

But everyone's a moron to you no matter what their answer is. Stick it sideways.

[Visigoth]

well i wonder where all this suicide bombers and kidnappings come from if the people there are so happy about the occupation....


The freaking suicide bombers are coming mostly from other countries, moron... namely Syria - which by the way, should be our next target.

[phalzyr]

Good advice, unfortunately for you the reality of the situation is the US news makes the situation in Iraq out to be worse than it is. I'm the one who said go talk to an Iraqi. I've been there, I have talked to them. I have Friends who are there now and others that are home that hve been there as recently as months ago. That's where I get my Iraqi news. Where do you get your information?

Yes US news makes it look worse when it is in our governments favor, better when the opposit holds true. I'm not saying what sadam is doing is a good thing, I'm just saying what right do corupt politicians have to decide whether we should get involved. Should we be the hero every single thing that goes wrong in this world? We should stick to only things that directly effect us not every little thing like we have been lately. The politicians have a hard enough time running our own country let alone interferring with others.

So in all, what some peolpe on this thread are saying is that no country needs to worry about self-defense because they have america to fight for them.

[phalzyr]

Oh... I dunno.. wholesale genocide of the Kurds counts as a bad thing to me.

I never said it was good, I just said us getting involved is in the gray area. We have enough problems running our own country should we decide how other are run? We can't save everyone that has a problem inside our country, but we spend so much time trying to play god with other countries...

[straitjacket]

We tried isolationalism (sp) that didn't work very well either. Go to www.usaid.gov we help a whole lot around the world...not just with our military. Those are my tax dollars and I don't mind...some of these countries need it desperatly. Look at the 90 million $'s we spent in Lithiuania over 5 years (once again I have no idead if I spelled this right) and all that it helped them with there (read some of the reports of what has been accomplished on the USAID website. All anybody seems to see is the bad or the wrong or what they consider to be bad or wrong...and forget how much good there is that is done. Some things ended up as going wrong ...vietnam for example...we were there to help the French

"in a series of steps between 1950 and 1965. In May 1950, President Harry S. Truman authorized a modest program of economic and military aid to the French, who were fighting to retain control of their Indochina colony, including Laos and Cambodia as well as Vietnam. When the Vietnamese Nationalist (and Communist-led) Vietminh army defeated French forces at Dienbienphu in 1954, the French were compelled to accede to the creation of a Communist Vietnam north of the 17th parallel while leaving a non-Communist entity south of that line."

America thought having Communists there was a bad plan (domino effect etc etc) they then set about doing every thing they could as screwed up as they could....good ideas + the worst possible execution of some of them = a mess. They should have told the French sorry we tried to help live with it. We didn't and ploiticians saw to it that it was a failure

We ARE NOT not nor have we even been as bad as you seem to think.

If we pulled back to just our borders you would find this world a darker place than you would ever think.

Go ahead flame away

[mattimus]

as regards vietnam, i always thought the real sad and tragic aspect about this particular conflict was that prior to the start of the conflict Ho Chi Minh had great respect for the american nation and only good things to say about your people. Sure wasnt it actually american agents (from OSS) who trained Ho Chi Minh and his boyos. Ho and the gang operated as guerilla fighter allies against the japanese during WW2, on the promise that they would get their country back (also similar to many other anti-jap insurgents in the asia-pacific region e.g. philippines). However the trouble really started when the powers that be in post-war france decided (disgracefully) to renege on their promise to the Vietnamese. Thereafter they acted to put down the local protests by their former jungle fighter allies with appalling brutality. And whilst communism/socialism was a factor perhaps for the management of the intial jungle rebel groups I dont think it was a big a factor as nationalism. I really think by this shameful action, the french government managed to drive Ho and the gang into the arms of the extreme communists as typified by Mao and his nasty scene in China. You know the rest. Unfortunately, france has had a run of bad leaders in this century but again i'm not pointing the finger at just them the same could be said for many many other great nations worldwide.

[Aphrodite1]

All I can say before I quit reading this thread altogether, is that if ANY other country did to/expected from us what we have done to others (iraq being merely the latest in a several decade long list of invasions) we would go ballistic. But because it's us invading them, and not them invading us.. somehow it's ok and we're heroes. But if they do the EXACT same thing to us, even when it's for the exact same reason... we refer to it as terrorism. Go figure...

I suppose that if someone else decides to invade/conquer us because we have WMD it's ok? right? right??

[Shock]

All I can say before I quit reading this thread altogether, is that if ANY other country did to/expected from us what we have done to others (iraq being merely the latest in a several decade long list of invasions) we would go ballistic. But because it's us invading them, and not them invading us.. somehow it's ok and we're heroes. But if they do the EXACT same thing to us, even when it's for the exact same reason... we refer to it as terrorism. Go figure...

I suppose that if someone else decides to invade/conquer us because we have WMD it's ok? right? right??

Dear, I seriously doubt the people flying the airliners into the World Trade Center were coming over here to try to free us from our oppressive government or help us make a better life for ourselves.

Do you even know what you are talking about? My advice is for you to quit reading this thread. Just give up because you can twist the situation all you want and nobody is going to see your warped point of view...except maybe others with a warped point of view.

[Visigoth]

Dear, I seriously doubt the people flying the airliners into the World Trade Center were coming over here to try to free us from our oppressive government or help us make a better life for ourselves.

Do you even know what you are talking about? My advice is for you to quit reading this thread. Just give up because you can twist the situation all you want and nobody is going to see your warped point of view...except maybe others with a warped point of view.


Agreed, this person is clueless.

[phalzyr]

Go ahead flame away

No flaming please, don't react like shock please, just discuss :) I see where your coming from but, I have never said stop giving donations to other countries. I'm just refering to the way the military gets involvmed. Though we could of used the money donated to other countries for our own, I'm not against helping others by giving them food and housing. But I'd prefer to teach them how to live than keep on giving them food (teach them how to grow their own, and no I'm not saying it doesn't happen).

APhrodite1 might of not got her/his point across well but it is valid, If anyone came into our country like we invade others we'd be upset. We never try to harm innocents in the wars we fight (innocent by our beliefs), so the 9/11 thing isn't anything like what we do but then again she/he didn't specificcally say that event. Shock you always take things out of context pointing to one word/event/anything and not seeing the whole picture. Take a step back and try to see where we are coming from not immediately ripping our statemnets apart at the first flaw you see.

Maybe if you respond nicely to us we'll respond the same, just because we don't believe the exact same thing as you doesn't mean we're ignorant. Maybe we just seen things unfold from a different POV than you or seen things you didn't or vice versa. I'm sorry I responded so agressively but I tend to respond the way someone responded to me. (whether it be on the net or in person, something I need to work on.)

If you want to believe this country is perfect go ahead. I will never believe that however. I'm also not saying we shouldn't be over their fighting, I'm just saying how we went about it not right. But you can twist my words however you want to make yourself happy go right ahead and flame me again, but don't be surprised if I don't respond.