Patch 1.4 (germany) has now arrived !!!

[cyclops]

At http://dlh.net/cgi-bin/dlp.cgi?lang=eng&sys=pc&file=dlords13zu14ger.zip&ref=ps you can now download both versions of patch 1.4 (german version). One version ist for updating from V1.2e (german sales version - 63MB), the second is for updating from V1.3 (51MB).

So let´s hope, that the US-Version will arrive in the next hours too...

Best Regards from the german DL community !

[Zothen]

Thanks, Cyclops, but again its very disturbing, that the german patch is scheduled earlier than the one of the original game version.

[MALA]

Et pour les Français c'est pour quand?

Merci d'avance.

[Genhgis Ghandi]

At least they can tell us if most of the spells and other fixes work!

[Zothen]

I don't want to appear pessimistic, but i just can't believe that they fixed internet lags...

[CraigBee]

I don't want to appear pessimistic, but i just can't believe that they fixed internet lags...

The 30 second internet lag is what has prevented my brother and I from finishing the game! I hope the lag is fixed!

Craig

[Reguile]

They are probably giving Germany more service because DL's reputation is better there than it is in the US.

[Dark]

That still doesn’t make it right, we all here in there states have been awaiting a new patch to fix all of the broken scripts and many other areas that are messed up. I need the patch now. I’ve been waiting on this **** patch for 6 months now patiently and to me this is a huge slap in the face giving the German patch priority over ours. This is BS!

[Waer]

Thanks to cyclops for letting us know the patch is being released. I'm glad to know they have it and we will have it soon.

Thanks to HP and DC for persisting and compleating and making improvements on the game, often in the face of seemingly implacable hostility.

Thanks to everyone on this board who who helped me when I was stuck in the game and who posted helpful hints.

Thanks to the posters who make me laugh out loud, including some of the "I want an Oompa Loompa now!" posters. ;)

Thanks for the hours and hours of fun I've had with the game and on this board.

[Crywolf]

the zip file is corrupt....


=/

[CKomet*]

the zip file is corrupt....


=/
no... you sometimes must try it more then one time....
i have had the the first time problems, too, but after the third attempt it works :)

[Crywolf]

thanksss man!!


=))
hey, gothic is a good game??

[CKomet*]

=))
hey, gothic is a good game??
yes :) i thing it's one of the best :)

[Raiven]

I downloaded the patch and installed it but i cant customize my characters face, hair, skin...... :S

[CKomet*]

I downloaded the patch and installed it but i cant customize my characters face, hair, skin...... :S
i'm not sure, but i 've read it only works, when you build a new char.
And there i can change it :)

[BungBo]

I bet after all this waiting, they still didn't bother to put any fire sounds to that first campfire at the very beginning of the game. :eek:

And 51 megs doesn't sound like much after all this time. I was expecting at least a gig. :D

B^)...

[GeorgeKeith]

NO WAY! I DO NOT believe 1.4 is available in Germany. Just another stall tactic to get more sales in other countries. And 51 meg is a joke!

[Crimthan]

That still doesn’t make it right, we all here in there states have been awaiting a new patch to fix all of the broken scripts and many other areas that are messed up. I need the patch now. I’ve been waiting on this **** patch for 6 months now patiently and to me this is a huge slap in the face giving the German patch priority over ours. This is BS!


Yah, I'm pretty much in the same boat. I can pick up a 30$ Dynasty Warriors 5, Extreme Legends game that actually has character customization, height, muscularity, etc, and yet a game even more geared toward the direction of an RPG still doesn't have the customization in, yet. =/

[ferncliff]

NO WAY! I DO NOT believe 1.4 is available in Germany. Just another stall tactic to get more sales in other countries. And 51 meg is a joke!
George that statement is so paranoid I’m willing to guess you have a tinfoil hat on right now. Come on! The patch is probably not out in the states due to the holiday. Unfortunately we may end up waiting till Monday. D

[GeorgeKeith]

NU UH, The last time I wore a tin foil hat was in a thunderstorm..... never again. :D

And of course the German patch will install over the English 1.3 but then the game will not start. Had to uninstall, then re-install.

[mkreku]

I'm glad Germany got the patch before the US. I mean, how many times hasn't Europe had to wait a few months for stuff to be released over here? Someone wrote that it was a slap in the face to the US public.. Geez, grow up.

Not that I care really. I don't speak german myself and my version is the english one. All I care about is that this means the english patch 1.4 is due out soon too! It's been a long wait, let's hope it's been worth it!

I do agree that 51 MB seems a bit small though. I guess the world is still empty?

[Crywolf]

i cant change aparence of my character



=(

[GeorgeKeith]

There is no character appearance changing in versions 1.0, 1.2, or 1.3.

[Visigoth]

Nah, they probably made it for the Germans first 'cause we're bigger whiners.

[Shock]

Nah, they probably made it for the Germans first 'cause we're bigger whiners.

Well, they're not as picky because they are lucky to have one RPG to play every 2 years. That's why they make good board games.

[NTJedi]

most likely the developers are releasing the patch overseas first as a testing ground... they wait and see if any major bugs reported... fix any major bugs and release in the USA. Just my guess.

[Visigoth]

most likely the developers are releasing the patch overseas first as a testing ground... they wait and see if any major bugs reported... fix any major bugs and release in the USA. Just my guess.

Poor Germans... always the tool of the West.


:eek:

[Shock]

Not entirely. They did make the Gothic series, beer, and some good desserts.

[Salmoncat]

Not entirely. They did make the Gothic series, beer, and some good desserts.

Quality cars as well. And hey, if it weren't for the Germans I wouldn't be playing Call of Duty 2 while waiting for this albatross of a patch to come to fruition.

[chamr]

Poor Germans... always the tool of the West.


:eek:


um... the Germans are part of "the West".

:p

Perhaps you meant "tool" in a different way...

:eek:

[Zothen]

Perhaps you meant "tool" in a different way...
:eek:

Perhaps he doesn't know what he meant himself... ;)

If they use the german community to test the patch, then eliminating possible bugs for the U.S. release I would be more than happy about it, cause I ordered the U.S. version. Being a german, I nonetheless prefer to play the original version of games.

[NTJedi]

Question on the German Patch

...... Naga Temple.........

Has the secret chambers of the Naga Queen been given treasures in her lair?? Some of those chambers are not easy to find... hopefully this was fixed.

[CKomet*]

Question on the German Patch

...... Naga Temple.........

Has the secret chambers of the Naga Queen been given treasures in her lair?? Some of those chambers are not easy to find... hopefully this was fixed.
hmm. up to now i haven't heard anything... and i haven't reaches the temple by myselve :scared:

[cyclops]

There is a good chance, that the treasure chambers are stocked now - because the chests in Davenmore Castle are filled too after the patch.
But we will check the naga treasures as soon as possible and keep you informed...

[ferncliff]

There is a good chance, that the treasure chambers are stocked now - because the chests in Davenmore Castle are filled too after the patch.
But we will check the naga treasures as soon as possible and keep you informed...
Climb on top of the ruins of talendor and see if there are any chests up there now. If you're standing facing the entrance to the chamber of spirits the wall to your right looks like a set of narrow stairs. You can walk/jump up them to get to the top. D

[CKomet*]

Climb on top of the ruins of talendor and see if there are any chests up there now. If you're standing facing the entrance to the chamber of spirits the wall to your right looks like a set of narrow stairs. You can walk/jump up them to get to the top. D
i have aked in our Forum, because i'm still far away from the ruins :eek:

[CKomet*]

sorry for doublepost, but the edit time is over :(

it seems, that there is nothing beside a wunderful view over talendor ;)

[NTJedi]

What about the Naga Temple... Queens Lair... with the hidden chambers??

[Visigoth]

Not entirely. They did make the Gothic series, beer, and some good desserts.



mmmmmmmmmm.... BEEEEERRR.

:D

[Visigoth]

Perhaps he doesn't know what he meant himself... ;)


Oh, I know what I meant... just remember, if it hadn;t been for the good 'ol USA and its allies, you folks (and likely most of Europe) would be speaking Russian.

[Waer]

Oh, I know what I meant... just remember, if it hadn;t been for the good 'ol USA and its allies, you folks (and likely most of Europe) would be speaking Russian.

At various times Germany has been a strategic ally, like er, now.

Please. Even though there is some truth in what you say it is boorish to run around saying it.

In actuallity, much of the international community, and specifically Europe, is interdependant and has been for about 400 years. As such, at some point, all of the major countries have historically played key roles in the growth and expansion of both other European countries, and the US.

The real take it home and show yer momma truth is this: They is us.

[Visigoth]

Nah, I don't run around saying it... I know it.

Strategic Ally? Sure, when they feel like it. But when the sh** hits the fan, we can only count on ourselves and the Brits for REAL support.

[Zothen]

Strategic Ally? Sure, when they feel like it. But when the sh** hits the fan, we can only count on ourselves and the Brits for REAL support.

I would rather say: Whenever the U.S. is ignoring other countries opinions, they can only count on themselves and maybe the Brits.

[Visigoth]

I would rather say: Whenever the U.S. is ignoring other countries opinions, they can only count on themselves and maybe the Brits.

Opinions? I call it cowardice, but that's just my two cents. Nothing against the German people, I myself am of German heritage, but their politics are spineless.

[NTJedi]

What about the Naga Temple... Queens Lair... with the hidden chambers?? Do they have any treasures?

bumping question

[CKomet*]

bumping question
ups... sorry... i haven't seen it...
and i must ask again the others, because i'm still far away from there....

[CKomet*]

so...
it seems, that there is nothing... probably the rooms are so hidden, that even the devs are not able to locate them...

[PaladinPup]

Opinions? I call it cowardice, but that's just my two cents. Nothing against the German people, I myself am of German heritage, but their politics are spineless.


You either a 13 year lil boy trying to troll here or you are pitifully a slave to your own media. Have you been to Germany? Live there to know what you really talking about?

Read some history about what the US is doing is most countries to further thier sorry corruption that they pathetically call "foreign policy"...better yet read some history about what happens to great, powerful empires that constantly bully others to pursue their own interests...what happens to them in the long run?

You are only demonstrating your own ignorance here.

[CKomet*]

ähm.... i thing it will be better not to discuss about politic......
that will only give throuble between the people here and that's not good :(

(grrr... i hate it, that my english ist so horrible)

[ferncliff]

ähm.... i thing it will be better not to discuss about politic......
that will only give throuble between the people here and that's not good :(

(grrr... i hate it, that my english ist so horrible)
That's mature of you CKomet.
Thanks for all the updates on the German patch.
Is there treasure in Emmindor's tower? Has anyone found the arcane spells cataclysm, whirlwind, ice storm, fire storm, fire missiles or zap? Has anyone found the celestial spell Prismatic Rays? D.

[3days]

eh can we get back on topic here please.
Anyone have any idea as to whether the multiplayer aspect has been fixed in 1.4?
Any rune or celestial spells that didnt work working now?
What about some of the broken class quests?
TIA
zacho

[GeorgeKeith]

Supposedly it has in the German 1.4

[Visigoth]

You either a 13 year lil boy trying to troll here or you are pitifully a slave to your own media. Have you been to Germany? Live there to know what you really talking about?

Read some history about what the US is doing is most countries to further thier sorry corruption that they pathetically call "foreign policy"...better yet read some history about what happens to great, powerful empires that constantly bully others to pursue their own interests...what happens to them in the long run?

You are only demonstrating your own ignorance here.


Oh my... I am humbled. -snickers-

Whatever you say jacka**.

[Shock]

You either a 13 year lil boy trying to troll here or you are pitifully a slave to your own media. Have you been to Germany? Live there to know what you really talking about?

Read some history about what the US is doing is most countries to further thier sorry corruption that they pathetically call "foreign policy"...better yet read some history about what happens to great, powerful empires that constantly bully others to pursue their own interests...what happens to them in the long run?

You are only demonstrating your own ignorance here.

From the tone of your post, it sounds like you're a slave to your own media.

[dayo]

You either a 13 year lil boy trying to troll here or you are pitifully a slave to your own media. Have you been to Germany? Live there to know what you really talking about?

Read some history about what the US is doing is most countries to further thier sorry corruption that they pathetically call "foreign policy"...better yet read some history about what happens to great, powerful empires that constantly bully others to pursue their own interests...what happens to them in the long run?

You are only demonstrating your own ignorance here.

Boy let's see here First which country has a history of bullying others and second read some history get a clue do you live in the USA and do you know of which you are speaking. Third it seems that Germany is also an expansionist capatalist nation as well. All capatalistic societies are going to seek their own agenda . That would be called a competetive marketplace.

[CKomet*]

:( *grrrrr* damned
at the last 3 poster.....
please can you talk about that in an other thread...



@ ferncliff and 3days

answer to your posts will come later later :)

[ferncliff]

It seems unlikely that any of you posters have a degree in world history. All you are doing is going tit for tat trading BS. In this thread some German gamers are giving us more info then the developers have seen fit to do. So how about you guys give them a break. If you need a reason then keep in mind that all our wounded soldiers are passing though Ramstein Air Base Germany on their way home. There a large number of Germans are personally doing more then any of us on this forum are doing for the wounded Americans.

Thanks again CKomet for going to the trouble to answer our questions. D

[Visigoth]

Nah, just trying to make more interesting conversation than: "Where is the **** patch?!" and "Why isn't there character customization?!" and "DW Bradley is a F UC* F UC* FUCKE!" and so on, ad nauseum. As you might imagine, I don't give a shi* about political correctness (with the exception of posting foul language in its entirety). I love my country and am so sick and tired of people saying that we are "bullying" others... ask 'ol Saddam Hussein about bullying others. He and Stalin wrote the book on that kind of stuff. Oh and don't forget.... the rest of those Al Queida bastages hiding out in Syria of wherever those cowards decide to bury themselves, are gonna get a taste of American Foreign Policy in the not too distant future. Meanwhile the rest of the world will ***** and moan about how awful we are to kick their sorry as*ses, how we bully others, how we only care about ourselves...

History has a way of repeating itself, and one thing the USA will never allow itself to be again is complacent.

[Shock]

Nah, just trying to make more interesting conversation than: "Where is the **** patch?!" and "Why isn't there character customization?!" and "DW Bradley is a F UC* F UC* FUCKE!" and so on,


HAHA!

http://www.proki.org/images/glovehi5.jpg



Oh wait, that's not the right picture...

http://www.netitor.com/photos/schools/ill/nonsport/fisf/FB-High-Five.jpg

There we go.

[sfhand]

Nah, just trying to make more interesting conversation than: "Where is the **** patch?!" and "Why isn't there character customization?!" and "DW Bradley is a F UC* F UC* FUCKE!" and so on, ad nauseum. As you might imagine, I don't give a shi* about political correctness (with the exception of posting foul language in its entirety). I love my country and am so sick and tired of people saying that we are "bullying" others... ask 'ol Saddam Hussein about bullying others. He and Stalin wrote the book on that kind of stuff. Oh and don't forget.... the rest of those Al Queida bastages hiding out in Syria of wherever those cowards decide to bury themselves, are gonna get a taste of American Foreign Policy in the not too distant future. Meanwhile the rest of the world will ***** and moan about how awful we are to kick their sorry as*ses, how we bully others, how we only care about ourselves...

History has a way of repeating itself, and one thing the USA will never allow itself to be again is complacent.


So, according to you we're not quite as bad as Saddam. I'll agree with that, but, when I was a lad I was taught that America was a great country because we stood for human rights and freedom. Now tell me that being "not as bad as Saddam" doesn't fall well short of setting a standard for greatness.

You don't like people describing what we're doing as bullying? What would you call this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/interviews/lagouranis.html
That's one **** of a way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. I don't expect you to be swayed by this, you've already positioned yourself in a posture of ignorance. Guantanamo - not quite as bad as Soviet gulags. US policy in Iraq - not quite as bad as Saddam. Extrordinary rendition - not quite as bad as Nazi's putting people in concentration camps. Maybe we should chain you to the floor until you tell us what we want to hear... The America I was taught to believe in is worth fighting for and saving, the America you seem to be in love is a horrible thing to behold. People like you are a bigger threat to America than any foreign entity.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

So, according to you we're not quite as bad as Saddam. I'll agree with that, but, when I was a lad I was taught that America was a great country because we stood for human rights and freedom. Now tell me that being "not as bad as Saddam" doesn't fall well short of setting a standard for greatness.

You don't like people describing what we're doing as bullying? What would you call this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/interviews/lagouranis.html
That's one **** of a way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. I don't expect you to be swayed by this, you've already positioned yourself in a posture of ignorance. Guantanamo - not quite as bad as Soviet gulags. US policy in Iraq - not quite as bad as Saddam. Extrordinary rendition - not quite as bad as Nazi's putting people in concentration camps. Maybe we should chain you to the floor until you tell us what we want to hear... The America I was taught to believe in is worth fighting for and saving, the America you seem to be in love is a horrible thing to behold. People like you are a bigger threat to America than any foreign entity.

Do you really think that America is an evil bully? The blood of American soldiers is being spilled to liberate Iraq and give her people a chance to live in freedom rather than being oppressed by tyrants, just as America sent her sons and daughters to help others in the past. Do you think that America is going to add Iraq to her territory when this is all said and done?

America is not perfect but she stands on the side of light and she is responsible for the spread of democracy around the world. America is the home of the free and the brave and because of her bravery and sacrifices others now have a chance to taste her freedom.

God bless America!!!!

GOW

[chamr]

Now, now, kids. Let's get back on task:

Where the f*** is the f***** patch, god f**** it!!!!

(That was for Visi)

As with everything in life, it's not as simple as the "I-bleed-red-white-and-blue" crowd nor the "America-is-evil" crowd would have you believe. The bottom line is that America, while having done many wonderful things, is just as flawed as any other nation. Believe you me: every stinking country in the world and in history has it's fair share of dirty laundry.

The only thing that matters to me is trying to get better. Trying to be the best we can be as a country and as a people (yes, i'm american). Unfortunately, I feel that our current administration is pretty **** incompetent, to be charitable. They've prosecuted a war on very, very shaky reasoning that changes with the circumstances and they've not even prosecuted it well. The military is certainly doing the job it's being asked to do. The problem is with the planning and civilian/political management. The Bush Neo-Conservatives love to talk about accountability and ownership and pretend that running a country is like running a business. Well, if I were on the Board of Directors for the good old USA, I'd fire Cheney and Associates so fast it would make their heads spin. They've been doing a terrible job. Absolutely, possitively terrible.

Now, give us the stinkin' patch already!!!!!!! :D


really... please... pretty please...

[runescape101]

The end of all the turmoil. and it happened right after i finished responding to a post asking if 1.4 would ever arrive. the nswer i gave was yes and im glad 2 c i was right

[sfhand]

Do you really think that America is an evil bully? The blood of American soldiers is being spilled to liberate Iraq and give her people a chance to live in freedom rather than being oppressed by tyrants, just as America sent her sons and daughters to help others in the past. Do you think that America is going to add Iraq to her territory when this is all said and done?

America is not perfect but she stands on the side of light and she is responsible for the spread of democracy around the world. America is the home of the free and the brave and because of her bravery and sacrifices others now have a chance to taste her freedom.

God bless America!!!!

GOW

Yep. The blood of American soldiers is being spilled to make another islamic republic. Why do you think we gave so much military aid to Saddam during his little war with Iran? (answer: it was to stop the spread of islamic governments in the middle east)

Are you referring to Vietnam? Talk about disasterous foreign policy... both for our slain soldiers and for the millions of Vietnamese we killed so the commies wouldn't get them.

When we resort to torture and imprisoning without trial we lose any claim to moral enlightenment. Why should Scooter Libby and Tom Delay be presumed innocent while Jose Padilla is held for years in a military prison without being afforded the rights guaranteed by our Constitution?

Do I think America is trying to annex Iraq? No. Do I think the provisional authority we set up there tried to make it so Iraqis couldn't nationalize their oilfields? Yes. If we're so noble, why do you think America won't agree to let its soldiers be accountable to the mandates of international law?

Furthermore, your claim that America is responsible for the spread of democracy around the world seems hypocritical. In a democracy the people, not a foreign occupier, get to decide who governs them.

Slowly America is waking up. Notice Bush's approval ratings now as compared to a year ago.

God Bless Humanity... we surely need it.

[Lev]

================================================
The blood of American soldiers is being spilled to liberate Iraq and give her people a chance to live in freedom rather than being oppressed by tyrants, just as America sent her sons and daughters to help others in the past.
================================================

This could be very nice, but do you really think that the life of a single person consist only on ability to live in a freedom, not being oppressed by tyrants? No, I don't think so.

First priority is life itself. Do you know how many people were killed in that war? Then we have health and ability to get money to support himself and family. And only then, maybe, you can think about living in freedom or thyrany. But at this very moment I'm afraid that hondreds thousands of Irakees are dead because of that war and they will never ever need freedom anymore. Is it worth it?

[Visigoth]

So, according to you we're not quite as bad as Saddam. I'll agree with that, but, when I was a lad I was taught that America was a great country because we stood for human rights and freedom. Now tell me that being "not as bad as Saddam" doesn't fall well short of setting a standard for greatness.

You don't like people describing what we're doing as bullying? What would you call this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/interviews/lagouranis.html
That's one **** of a way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. I don't expect you to be swayed by this, you've already positioned yourself in a posture of ignorance. Guantanamo - not quite as bad as Soviet gulags. US policy in Iraq - not quite as bad as Saddam. Extrordinary rendition - not quite as bad as Nazi's putting people in concentration camps. Maybe we should chain you to the floor until you tell us what we want to hear... The America I was taught to believe in is worth fighting for and saving, the America you seem to be in love is a horrible thing to behold. People like you are a bigger threat to America than any foreign entity.


Hmm... yeah, human rights and freedom come at a cost... remember WWII?? You are just a liberal punk I'm sure... you probably believe that we can help people by hugging a few trees and spewing money in every direction. Hmm, well guess what Chumley, we DO that, but occasionally we have to kick AS* too. The fact that we are somewhat mired in Iraq is a temporary condition. And YES, torture and "indecent" things are going to occur. Geezus, in EVERY war there are crimes, but does that make the cause of those wars any less just or necessary? I think not.

We ARE winning the hearts of the everyday Iraqi folk... it's just the liberal press takes every indiscretion and makes it look like its US policy. Get a clue and stop memorizing every Michael Moore film as the gospel and go preach your insane jibberish elsewhere.

[Visigoth]

================================================
The blood of American soldiers is being spilled to liberate Iraq and give her people a chance to live in freedom rather than being oppressed by tyrants, just as America sent her sons and daughters to help others in the past.
================================================

This could be very nice, but do you really think that the life of a single person consist only on ability to live in a freedom, not being oppressed by tyrants? No, I don't think so.

First priority is life itself. Do you know how many people were killed in that war? Then we have health and ability to get money to support himself and family. And only then, maybe, you can think about living in freedom or thyrany. But at this very moment I'm afraid that hondreds thousands of Irakees are dead because of that war and they will never ever need freedom anymore. Is it worth it?

My next door neighbor is Iranian, and he and his family escaped Iran during the Fundamentalist Islamic revolution there. He has always praised the US for our actions in Iraq and hopes that someday he and his family may return to a truly free Iran. Do you think that any such change can come without a price for both sides? And some of you say we do this purely for financial or strategic gain. Yes that's part of it, but do you think an oppressed people would rather stay oppressed, or have the opportunity to grow with the global economy and become contributing members of said economy? Those nations are practically living in the Dark Ages for all but the very wealthy.

And YES, I do not approve of some of our allies in the region, especially the Saudi Arabian government... not sure what to think about those folks. I would LOVE to be less dependent on foreign oil. YES, we need alternative energy resources. YEs, I feel our government is not doing enough in that regard.


I ask you... how DO you initiate change when change is necessary, and when a government holds its people hostage to oppressive policy?

Sanctions? BAH. Saddam Hussein proved that a worthless tactic.

A strike or two against factories or some such nonsense (AKA Clinton policy) to "slap the wrist"? BAH.

Leave the country to rot in its own backwater way that strangles it own people both physically and mentally? BAH.

[Lev]

================================================== ===
I ask you... how DO you initiate change when change is necessary, and when a government holds its people hostage to oppressive policy?
================================================== ===

What makes you think that the changes are really necessary? And why do you think that the only solution to not being democatic is to make a big war?

OK, the war is not a big news to the humanity. But the war should not be worthless. And what is the result of this war? Dozens of dead every day. The total number of war victim is bigger than the total number of victims that Saddam was accused of. Don't you find it crazy?

Is there a freedom for a person in Irak today? WHO CARES! Everyone in Irak is busy to staying alive nowadays. Freedom is not a subject today.

[Shock]

Everyone in Iraq was busy trying to stay alive when Saddam was in power and before America intervened. I don't think you even know what you are talking about.

[sfhand]

You are just a liberal punk I'm sure...
... go preach your insane jibberish elsewhere.

Ad Hominem is the only argument you have because the facts don't back up your rhetoric, sorry. The next play out of the right wing playbook is to challenge my patriotism. Let me clue you in about something, calling people names on the internet doesn't help you win arguments.

Do you seriously think VP Cheney is advocating for torture to protect a few bad apples? Don't you get it? This administration is destroying America one cherished value at a time. I hope you're proud you're not quite as bad as Saddam... sheesh. Next you'll be telling us that hugging trees and helping the poor is treasonous and that torture, only when you're the torturer of course, is patriotic. I wonder what has happened to American values.

And your claim that sanctions weren't working are hogwash as proven by Mr. Blix's report, you know, the one he filed in 02/03 right before we chased him out of Iraq AND our subsequent invasion and the inspections of Mr.Kay...

For every Iranian you know here in the US that is unhappy about Iran there are at least a thousand in Iran who are happy the Shah is gone AND after the brutal war between Iraq and Iran I'm sure all Iranians are glad Saddam is gone so that point is, uh, pointless. I'm not so sure "western" Iranians are going to be too happy to see Iraq become a theorcracy like the Iran they fled.

But the number one thing you haven't acknowledged is the human price the Iraqis have paid because of the ad campaign foisted on the American people by our neo-con conmen.

[sfhand]

Everyone in Iraq was busy trying to stay alive when Saddam was in power and before America intervened. I don't think you even know what you are talking about.


After we intervened, you know, with our sanctions. I remember it well when Madeleine Albright said she knew the sanctions would cause the death of 500 thousand Iraqi children but that it was a price she was willing to pay.

Did you miss Allawi the other day saying he thinks Iraq is worse now than it was under Saddam? Either worse or as bad, makes little difference to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/iraqbritainrights

Yep, democracy by force, might makes right. And, tell me again how it makes sense to promote democracy in a country where the majority of people don't like us?

[sfhand]

This is such a depressing topic, what say you we discuss the "war on Christmas" instead...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

After we intervened, you know, with our sanctions. I remember it well when Madeleine Albright said she knew the sanctions would cause the death of 500 thousand Iraqi children but that it was a price she was willing to pay.

Did you miss Allawi the other day saying he thinks Iraq is worse now than it was under Saddam? Either worse or as bad, makes little difference to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/iraqbritainrights

Yep, democracy by force, might makes right. And, tell me again how it makes sense to promote democracy in a country where the majority of people don't like us?

How do you say that the majority of Iraqis do not like us? The average Iraqi citizen welcomes US soldiers.

Sadam killed and tortured hundreds of thousands of his own people and ruled by terror. If you had a disagreement with him you died. If you had been in Iraq when he reigned and talked about his government the way you talk about the US you and probably your family would be dead.

We are not forcing anything on the Iraqi people. We are liberating them. We set up elections so they can chose their future rather than have an evil tyrant supress them. Once Iraq is on her feet we will pull out and Iraq will have a brighter future than it could ever have even imagined under Sadam or his heirs.

Do you remember a little thing called the American Revolution? It cost us many lives to win our freedom. Freedom isn't free. It carries a price.

[sfhand]

How do you say that the majority of Iraqis do not like us? The average Iraqi citizen welcomes US soldiers...


"We have become a catalyst for violence. A recent poll showed that 80% of the Iraqi public are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops; 45% believe attacks against Americans are justified."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-20-oppose_x.htm

I've read about the poll elsewhere too, I just can't remember where at this late hour.

I suspect you watch too much Faux news... that stuff will rot your brain.

Now, tell us about the "war on Christmas", please...

[Lev]

=================================================
Everyone in Iraq was busy trying to stay alive when Saddam was in power and before America intervened. I don't think you even know what you are talking about.
=================================================
OK. Give us the numbers. How many people were killed by force in let's say 2001 and how many people were killed this year?

In 1980-1990 Saddam was really bad and if invasion took place at that time, then it was probably supported by many people and really changed Irak to good.

But what was the reason to punish Saddam at the time when he was already peaceful and was not dangerous anymore. I'm afraid Bush just wanted the war nor matter in which country. Irak was chosen because Bush knew that Saddam IS NOT DANGEROUS ANYMORE.

[Phaidon]

First - I as a German had in my early childhood a strong pro US education. My Father was a guy who was born after the 2nd WW so the USA r the nation who liberated the world and Germany from the nazis and defended the freedom of the world against the communism. U rebuilt Germany, u supported Berlin with the air bridge u allowed German to be reunited (east and west) etc...

The only one what I don't like is the behaviour of ur government and the foreign politic in the last 50 years. The US invaded countries and removed democratic leaders for US friendly dictators to open the internal markets of these regions for the US economy.
And what I as one who isn't a citizen of the US don't like is that I have no rights in and outside the US including my country (I have no rights at this whole ******* world). German which the US thought could be involved in terrorism were kidnapped - moved to Afgahnistan - tortured - and after they noiticed that they r innocent moved back to Germany with a little money as reparation. Nobody believed them only as we tested the hair (cause the specific radiation u can see where the water was from which was drinked by the one) we knew that its true that they were in Afgahnistan. Not-US-citizens have for the US army no rights if they r not inside US territory (in the US each person has a few rights).

I am not for Saddam I am only not happy about the American tradition to join wars with faked reasons (Spanish American war - Vietnam war - Desert Storm - etc..).
I would be pro Enduring Freedom - if there were a concept for the time after the war (I mean for the ethnical groups not for the oil fields). U see today what happens. The Kurds want an own state. The powerfull minority of Sunnits want a big democratic Iraq and the Schitten? want n religious leader. There r the first terror acts between the groups not against the US congratulation u started a civil war.
But I am glad that u liberated the Iraq and I am thankful.

Cause WMDs. The Iraq was never able to produce them. They got during their war against the Iran weapons from the US, France and Germany. But these weapons rn't make for eternity. After a few decades they r useless.
The information (mobile laboratories) which were presented by Powell were delivered by the German secret service. We know it cause we sold them. But they rn't military laboratories. U can analyse earth regarding the possibility to use the region as field/cultivate plants - nothin else.

And, there is no coherence between Al Quaida and Iraq.

Afgahnistan - same like Iraq. U gave Saddam the power over the Iraq and the Taliban the power over Afgahnistan. Saddam cause u wanted that he is a kind of buffer against the Iran and gave the Taliban Afgahnistan cause u wanted (quotation of an US guy) "the Russian making a Vietnam".
There was a border between Russia and Afgahnistan. The US supported one military group in Afgahnistan (Taliban) and gave them equipment (Stinger) to fight the Russians. But the Russians didn't attacked. So the US gave the Taliban the order to support rebels in Russia. They did it and Russia felt forced to attack Afganistan cause it was the origin of these rebels. It worked Russia attacked Afgahistan and lost like teh US in Vietnam. But the Taliban had the power in Afgahnistan - after 9/11 u noiticed that it would be better not to support these groups.
Atm I am glad that u liberated Afgahnistan from the Taliban which u gave Afgahnistan years ago. Germany supports u there with our troops in Kundus and a few other points.

With this line "invaded countries and removed democratic leaders for US friendly dictators to open the internal markets of these regions for the US economy." I thought about:

- Nicaragua with Sandino/Garcia (1927)
- Guatemla with Arbas/Armenz (1954)
- Cuba with Batista/Castro (1961)
- Iraq with Qasim/Saddam (1963)
- Congo with Lumumbas/Mubutu (1964)
- Cambodia (1969)
- Chile with Pinochet/Allende (1973)
- Panama with Torrijos/Noriega (1980)
- Nicaragua (1981)
- Grenada (1983)
- Afgahnistan with Taliban (1996)
- Venezuela with Carmona/Chavez (2002)
- 2b continued...

All problems which u have with terrorism r the paybacks for ur aggresive foreign politics to increase ur economic wealth.

Cause the situation in the iraq:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[Crimthan]

www.protestwarrior.com


America: Everyone's favorite dead horse to kick.

The one on top is always being stabbed in the back by those below it, regardless of how many times it may have pulled them out of a jam...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Yes, we evil Americans invade foreign democracies and put evil dictators in place so we can open up our markets. This is how we have attained our huge trade deficits with other countries.

Next on our agenda is Britian. We are going to replace the Prime Minister and the Queen with clones of Hitler and Stalin. I believe that the invasion is set for Christmas Eve.

Austrailia falls soon thereafter...

[Visigoth]

Is there a freedom for a person in Irak today? WHO CARES!

I care, bonehead.

[Visigoth]

All problems which u have with terrorism r the paybacks for ur aggresive foreign politics to increase ur economic wealth.


:rolleyes:

AS*HOLE ALERT!!!

[Phaidon]

:rolleyes:

AS*HOLE ALERT!!!

Yes, we evil Americans invade foreign democracies and put evil dictators in place so we can open up our markets.
Or u just kill democratic leaders and replace them by dictators for fun? For example Pinochet?

edit:

2002 - The US supports the military leader Pedro Carmona against the democratic leader of Venezuela, Chavez. But they failed.
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_2002

[Phaidon]

1986 - The US supports the Taliban during the war against Russia.
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
1973 - The US supports Pinochet to start his dictatorship - pressure against the democratic president Allende
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_coup_of_1973

[Lev]

================================================== =
I care, bonehead.
================================================== =
Of course you care. Sitting in a nice chair drinking nice jus,
playing games and calling different people boneheads.
You've got a lot because you're US citizen without contibuting
your own hard work. Just because. You think you are smart and just
and that you know exactly when you should punish someone
and nobody should judge you, just because you are the special
kind of man.

You have no idea what kind of life in different countries are,
but you are definitely sure that you MUST give those people
freedom and democracy. The only problem is that no matter
how hard you try, there's only demolition and destruction after
you. Democracy and freedom can not be delivered on a demand.

US and Europe took hundreds of years to become what they are.
Can you expect that you can repeat it in two years frame somewhere
else? I guess you do not even have to think about it. Just take a look
at what happened to Irak. Just yesterday 10 US soldiers were killed.
And how many local people were killed? Nobody even have counted them.
Because nobody cares or maybe because the number is horrible...

[sfhand]

1986 - The US supports the Taliban during the war against Russia.
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
1973 - The US supports Pinochet to start his dictatorship - pressure against the democratic president Allende
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_coup_of_1973

The problem with providing links to the right wing types is they either can't read or can't understand them. Now if you could get your points broadcast on Faux News they might be open to hearing them.

I understand and generally agree with your earlier laundry list about what my country has done with the exception of the claim that the US was responsible for the USSR's invasion of Afhganistan.

Every person or country can either head towards or away from enlightenment. No person or country can rest on its laurels. Every day we are re-invented, every day is a new beginning.

What we have in America, as evidenced in this thread, are a bunch of people who want to claim moral superiority based on the actions of their grandfathers/fathers. They want to say that invading Iraq is similar to declaring war after Pearl Harbor. They dishonor those who died in Pearl Harbor in doing so.

If anything, Shock and Awe was worse than Pearl Harbor. True, it wasn't a surprise but it was an attack on a helpless country. In my opinion the Bush cabal should be tried for war crimes and the people who blindly support torture should be given a taste of their own medicine.

Maybe the right should stick to commenting on the "war on Christmas"...

[draxis]

if people would live by the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) the world would be a mouch better place.. i wont fule this discussion for i do not have all the facts and as far as a poll go there is no poll that is accrate becaus of the facet not everyone has the ability to partake in it.

god bless all

And for those who dont beleve in god take care

Geeeezzz i cant spell

[sfhand]

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg Trials

Sound familiar???

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Wow, according to you all the world is a democracy except where America has exerted her evil influence. You are of course wrong. The places where the US has supported someone else are places where dictators help sham elections to validate their reign of terror.

<<<You've got a lot because you're US citizen without contibuting
your own hard work.<<<

Well of course US citizens no longer have to struggle **to establish** our own democracy. However we do struggle to keep our democracy and so others can have freedom. I served in our armed forces during the original Desert Storm. Do you expect me to stay in the military all my life? I still support the struggle of freedom with my tax dollars and my votes.

<<<You have no idea what kind of life in different countries are,
but you are definitely sure that you MUST give those people
freedom and democracy. The only problem is that no matter
how hard you try, there's only demolition and destruction after
you. Democracy and freedom can not be delivered on a demand.
>>>>

Yes, we are determined that all people should be free. Yes there is a price to pay. Yes during a war for democracy things are not so good. After the war comes rebuilding. Then life becomes better for those currently alive and for the generations to follow.

<<<US and Europe took hundreds of years to become what they are.
Can you expect that you can repeat it in two years frame somewhere
else? I guess you do not even have to think about it. Just take a look
at what happened to Irak. Just yesterday 10 US soldiers were killed.
And how many local people were killed? Nobody even have counted them.
Because nobody cares or maybe because the number is horrible...
>>>

Errrr yes, it did take time to build America of course. However the American Revolution did not take hundreds of years and it did not take hundreds of years for life to start becoming better. Yes, I am aware we are spilling our blood so others can be free. Kind of noble of us, don't you think?

We could sit back and say "I don't care how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis Sadam kills. You Iraqis deal with your own problems." We also give out tons of foreign aid. Kind of noble of us, don't you think?

[Phaidon]

I already wrote that I wasn't total against the 3. Iraq war. For me the US hadn't to invent reasons like WMD or sth like this. To liberate the population is a good reason - u don't need any more. The only reason why I was against it is that they never had a concept for the post-war-Iraq. That was the European leaders said happend. We have a civil war in the Iraq.
(That the US get the European oil fields in Iraq is imho ok - they had the costs of the war too).

I am not total against the US foreign politics - never before so much nations were lead by democratic leaders. But the prize in some cases is very high.


with the exception of the claim that the US was responsible for the USSR's invasion of Afhganistan.
On a German TV channel - N24 (owner is Haim Saban) there was a English documentation about it. The US guy who was responsible for that told that. He coordinated the training of the Afghanistian fighters etc. and said that he has the order to make the Russians a Vietnam. I am sry that I have no other sources.

[sfhand]

I already wrote that I wasn't total against the 3. Iraq war. For me the US hadn't to invent reasons like WMD or sth like this. To liberate the population is a good reason - u don't need any more. The only reason why I was against it is that they never had a concept for the post-war-Iraq. That was the European leaders said happend. We have a civil war in the Iraq.
(That the US get the European oil fields in Iraq is imho ok - they had the costs of the war too).

I am not total against the US foreign politics - never before so much nations were lead by democratic leaders. But the prize in some cases is very high.


On a German TV channel - N24 (owner is Haim Saban) there was a English documentation about it. The US guy who was responsible for that told that. He coordinated the training of the Afghanistian fighters etc. and said that he has the order to make the Russians a Vietnam. I am sry that I have no other sources.


My point was I don't think USSR needed an excuse to invade Afghanistan. There is no doubt that America squealed with delight when the USSR became embroiled in its version of Vietnam and I don't dispute that the CIA aided the mujahadeen by giving them weapons. What I dispute is the claim that that was the deciding factor in USSR's decision to invade Afghanistan. You know there are large oil reserves eh? Funny that we should end up there too...

Now, on to Iraq. The reasons the American public was given for invading Iraq were the following.
1) Saddam had WMD's (remember the smoking gun as mushroom cloud) and the capability of delivery.
2) In a post 911 world Bush couldn't risk Saddam giving his Al-Quada allies WMD's.

This talk about nobly spreading Democracy is revisionist hogwash. Bush didn't appear before a joint session and ask for permission to use military force in an effort to spread democracy, now did he? Furthermore, he claimed he would only use force after exhausting all diplomatic efforts and after giving weapons inspections a fair shake. He did neither of those things.

The question is, would the American public have supported this boondoggle had they know the Bush Adminstration was hyping intelligence the same way advertising companies sell things we don't need? Based on the lack of support for the war today I'd have to say it's pretty clear they would not.

[sfhand]

Wow, according to you all the world is a democracy except where America has exerted her evil influence. You are of course wrong. The places where the US has supported someone else are places where dictators help sham elections to validate their reign of terror.


It sure sounds good, now back it up.

[Lev]

===============================================
I don't care how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis Sadam kills. You Iraqis deal with your own problems.
===============================================
As I have already said, the most terrific Saddam's time was before 1990.
With every year Saddam power was decreasing and decreasing and number
of his victims were really low by the time when the war started.
There's no need to talk about hundreds of thousands of killed Iraqis. It was in the past, but it was not true anymore by the time US invaded Irak.

If you think that we still should punish Saddam for his old crimes I would agree, but not at the price of war and literally another hundreds of thousands that were killed in this war by US troops.

And, now, Saddam sits in jail, Iraqis people and US soldiers are dying everyday. And who's won? Iraqis people? But Iraqis people say - please
leave us alone and go home. As and soon as US troops leave Irak the **** opens...

Freedom and democracy can not be given to any country just like that. Not only the govement must be democratic (it's easiest thing), but people themselves must be ready to live in, support and defend freedom and democracy. And unlike goverment, you can not make people free and democratic by just giving a couple of lessons on this subject. People have to learn it slowly by heart. That's something that can take several generations.

[Waer]

And unlike goverment, you can not make people free and democratic by just giving a couple of lessons on this subject. People have to learn it slowly by heart. That's something that can take several generations.

Maybe. Maybe not. Interestingly enough, we are sure to find out! A majority of US policy critics said there would not be a constitution. There were many who said there would never be free elections. And yet...

Don't fall prey to the propaganda of either side - those with a definite agenda against the US or it's current administration, and those with a definate agenda supporting the current administration. The truth, as always lies somewhere between.

Taking the position of "you just hate the US because you are jealous," is just as simple minded as saying Americans believe that "might makes right."

US foreign policy is complex and ever-changing. Its leadership and priorities undergo changes from one administration to the next. It is far too complex for such childish aphorisms.

There are good people trying to do good things who are slandered by those with self-serving interests, and, simultaneously, there are evil self-serving people being lauded by those with pure hearts because they are coincidentally on the same side of an issue. Sound messy? Think it is hard to pick out the good guys? Good, that is a step in the right direction.

We, who are capable of it, need to put on our thinking caps, and leave them on. Beware of trite catch phrases and insults (Faux News, “the liberal press”). Sound bites do (bite that is).

Let’s look at all sides critically, and then, if we can, take positive actions with a goal toward humanitarian solutions. That – if we are capable of it – is our responsibility, and our duty, as US voters and citizens.

[sfhand]

We, who are capable of it, need to put on our thinking caps, and leave them on. Beware of trite catch phrases and insults (Faux News, “the liberal press”). Sound bites do (bite that is).


So, are you ready to discuss the war on Christmas yet? It's all the rage on Faux News. You know, the guys with the trite catch phrase "fair and balanced".

I say it's time to do more than put our thinking caps on, I say it's time to start questioning the information we're being fed. Not just asking if it's accurate but why are they feeding us lies and distortions (yes, Faux News is the worst of the bunch but that doesn't leave the others blameless).

[Phaidon]

Freedom and democracy can not be given to any country just like that. Not only the govement must be democratic (it's easiest thing), but people themselves must be ready to live in, support and defend freedom and democracy. And unlike goverment, you can not make people free and democratic by just giving a couple of lessons on this subject. People have to learn it slowly by heart. That's something that can take several generations.
The real problem isn't that the country isn't ready for democracy. It is that u gave the population their freedom back. So they want to use it. In the past an ethnic minority had the power and the US choosed this group to create a new government. But the majority is religious and want sth like a liberal Iran (what the US don't want). Ur problem is that u can't deal with a population which use their freedom to reach other aims than u. And than there is a third group who want to split the Iraq and want to found an own country.
With Saddam and without freedom this thing called Iraq was able to excist. But without it is a little bit difficult.


What I dispute is the claim that that was the deciding factor in USSR's decision to invade Afghanistan. You know there are large oil reserves eh? Funny that we should end up there too...
- U r right they want to occupy this reagion since the middle age but the US maybe speed this war up.
- Humm. I think u know better than me which reasons the American population accepts for wars.

The few problems I have with the US foreign politics:
- That it includes war.
- That they use it as a legitimate instrument for their economic advantages (list I posted - if they liberate a population or ethnic group or defend theirself it is ok. Bismarck said "To fight a preventive war is like suicide against agony").
- That they use weapons like the atomic bomb and r developing mini nukes as bunker buster. That they still use cluster bombs in residential areas, still use napalm against humans and land mines against persons etc. In brief weapons which all civilized nations don't use.
- That u created the status of an unlawful combatant who has no human rights and decieded that US citizens have humans only to treat as humans inside the US. That means torture like in the darkest ancient age - to protect ur human values u said. Imho u use it to protect ur nation but that has nothin to do with humanity.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

It sure sounds good, now back it up.

How about you pointing out one place where there was a real democracy overthrown by the evil Americans so they could "open up the markets?" No such place exists.

[Phaidon]

- Nicaragua with Sandino/Garcia (1927)
- Guatemla with Arbas/Armenz (1954)
- Cuba with Batista/Castro (1961)
- Iraq with Qasim/Saddam (1963)
- Congo with Lumumbas/Mubutu (1964)
- Chile with Pinochet/Allende (1973)
- Panama with Torrijos/Noriega (1980)
- Venezuela with Carmona/Chavez (2002)

And what is for u a real democracy?

[sfhand]

How about you pointing out one place where there was a real democracy overthrown by the evil Americans so they could "open up the markets?" No such place exists.


So, basically, you can't back up your claim...

[Visigoth]

Or u just kill democratic leaders and replace them by dictators for fun? For example Pinochet?

edit:

2002 - The US supports the military leader Pedro Carmona against the democratic leader of Venezuela, Chavez. But they failed.
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_2002

Man, you sure are an effective Google user.

[Visigoth]

1986 - The US supports the Taliban during the war against Russia.
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
1973 - The US supports Pinochet to start his dictatorship - pressure against the democratic president Allende
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_coup_of_1973


A very different world we lived in back in those days...

[sfhand]

- Humm. I think u know better than me which reasons the American population accepts for wars.

Too many blood thirsty Americans for my taste... I'll accept war only as a defensive response to a direct attack - our responses to Pearl Harbor or the Gulf war are good examples.



The few problems I have with the US foreign politics:
- That it includes war.
- That they use it as a legitimate instrument for their economic advantages (list I posted - if they liberate a population or ethnic group or defend theirself it is ok. Bismarck said "To fight a preventive war is like suicide against agony").
- That they use weapons like the atomic bomb and r developing mini nukes as bunker buster. That they still use cluster bombs in residential areas, still use napalm against humans and land mines against persons etc. In brief weapons which all civilized nations don't use.
- That u created the status of an unlawful combatant who has no human rights and decieded that US citizens have humans only to treat as humans inside the US. That means torture like in the darkest ancient age - to protect ur human values u said. Imho u use it to protect ur nation but that has nothin to do with humanity.

Don't forget Jose Padilla, an American arrested in America and held for 3 years without charge as if we live in some 3rd rate dictatorship. I cry for my country, for what it has become.

Personally, I'm wondering when our European allies are going to stand up against us, at least on the torture issue. I read a poll recently that has Americans almost equally divided on the torture issue. You have no idea how much the evil represented by those poll results offends me. It is, by and large, the same crowd crowing about our "noble" deeds in Iraq who support torture and the suspension of habeas corpus.

They also defend their media for hiding the truth from them. How many pictures have Americans seen of the death and destruction in Iraq? None. The powers that be think the reason Americans turned against the Vietnam war was because the death and destruction was brought to close to home by the media. Have you seen the mercenary trophy killing video?

Now how about that war on Christmas?http://www.crooksandliars.com/images/2005/12/04/FoxWarOnXmas1.jpg

[Visigoth]

================================================== =
I care, bonehead.
================================================== =
Of course you care. Sitting in a nice chair drinking nice jus,
playing games and calling different people boneheads.
You've got a lot because you're US citizen without contibuting
your own hard work. Just because. You think you are smart and just
and that you know exactly when you should punish someone
and nobody should judge you, just because you are the special
kind of man.

You have no idea what kind of life in different countries are,
but you are definitely sure that you MUST give those people
freedom and democracy. The only problem is that no matter
how hard you try, there's only demolition and destruction after
you. Democracy and freedom can not be delivered on a demand.

US and Europe took hundreds of years to become what they are.
Can you expect that you can repeat it in two years frame somewhere
else? I guess you do not even have to think about it. Just take a look
at what happened to Irak. Just yesterday 10 US soldiers were killed.
And how many local people were killed? Nobody even have counted them.
Because nobody cares or maybe because the number is horrible...

It took many years for our country to become an independent nation, free of tyranny. Blood was spilled. This, unfortunately, is part of the process of political change, and I don't need any Google searching to back up that claim.

[Visigoth]

- Nicaragua with Sandino/Garcia (1927)
- Guatemla with Arbas/Armenz (1954)
- Cuba with Batista/Castro (1961)
- Iraq with Qasim/Saddam (1963)
- Congo with Lumumbas/Mubutu (1964)
- Chile with Pinochet/Allende (1973)
- Panama with Torrijos/Noriega (1980)
- Venezuela with Carmona/Chavez (2002)

And what is for u a real democracy?

All but one of those events occured pre- 9/11. We live in a very different world politically now.

[Visigoth]

Did you miss Allawi the other day saying he thinks Iraq is worse now than it was under Saddam? Either worse or as bad, makes little difference to me.



Short sighted view to say the least.

[Visigoth]

www.protestwarrior.com


America: Everyone's favorite dead horse to kick.

The one on top is always being stabbed in the back by those below it, regardless of how many times it may have pulled them out of a jam...

Outstanding! :)

[sfhand]

All but one of those events occured pre- 9/11. We live in a very different world politically now.

That's just crap. Less than 3000 Americans died in 2001 from terror attacks while over 42,000 died from auto accidents. Does your fear of perishing as the result of your relationship to cars cause you to stay off the streets?

Looks like there's something the German people can do, don't let your government cover this up:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html

[Visigoth]

================================================== ===
I ask you... how DO you initiate change when change is necessary, and when a government holds its people hostage to oppressive policy?
================================================== ===

What makes you think that the changes are really necessary? And why do you think that the only solution to not being democatic is to make a big war?




Change is ALWAYS necessary. Thats why we have a different president every term or two terms. We give ourselves the opportunity for change often. Can the Iraqis say the same about living under Saddam? Or for that matter, the silent majority in WWII who hated Hitler but lived under his regime unwillingly? How about the Afghanis under the Taliban? Would the South Koreans prefer to be Communist and poor? What about the Somalians? We spilled our share of blood to help those folks as well.

Hmmm... methinks change is good.


I ask again, when all political process fails, and diplomacy is for naught, what is to be done? Can every country just stand by and do nothing while people suffer unjustly? And dont bother me with details like whining about some country where people are oppressed and we aren't doing anything about it. Guess what? Why is it that everyone wants to blame the US for taking action when all other stand around and do nothing? I for one am glad I live in a country that has some backbone.

[Visigoth]

That's just crap. Less than 3000 Americans died in 2001 from terror attacks while over 42,000 died from auto accidents. Does your fear of perishing as the result of your relationship to cars cause you to stay off the streets?




Ummm... auto accidents are ACCIDENTS.... two fully loaded planes ramming into skyscrapers full of people are not accidents pal.

You're a fuc*ing joke.

[Visigoth]

Looks like there's something the German people can do, don't let your government cover this up:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html

Reminds me of an old saying:

"War is Hel l."

[sfhand]

Ummm... auto accidents are ACCIDENTS.... two fully loaded planes ramming into skyscrapers full of people are not accidents pal.

You're a fuc*ing joke.

Nice personal attack. I think the world of you too. At least this joke doesn't live his life in quaking in fear from the next terror attack. Quaking in fear to the point of abandoning the principals that made America a great nation.

The point of the statistic wasn't to equate auto accidents to terror attacks, it was to compare the likelyhood of the events happening to people. Let me know if this helps you understand the concept...

Hows your war against the war on christmas coming?

[XC6216]

well, how did we got here..? :confused:

oh, i remeber: there was some grudge

- about the german 1.4 patch
- about we germans don't march to war, when you call us

hmmm? the first point i would counter with "guinea pigs", too... :D

to the second i would answer: we couldn't!

all our troops are (still) in ex-yogoslavia and afghanistan, none remaining for iraq.
the german constitution forbids invading of other countries, if not by the will of the UN. even the permission for USAF to fly over germany during the iraq war was an act against our constitution. :eek:
we had some lucrative oil-treaties with saddam. :o
(now we're pi**ed of high oil-prices because you pigheads don't stoop to save some energy... :mad: )


but to ally with you american GAMERS: i own the english version of dungeon lords an have to wait with you for 1.4... :p

MAKE TEA, NOT LOVE!

[Visigoth]

At least this joke doesn't live his life in quaking in fear from the next terror attack. Quaking in fear to the point of abandoning the principals that made America a great nation.




I'd rather be fearful and alert than complacent. We try to protect our citizens through proactivity. We turned a blind eye before, but I think we won't do that again.

[Visigoth]

MAKE TEA, NOT LOVE!


mmmmm.... Tea. :)

[Phaidon]

Personally, I'm wondering when our European allies are going to stand up against us, at least on the torture issue.
Europe is addicted from the US. If we would do sth against u we will kill our economy.

We live in a very different world politically now.
And why do u think the US wouldn't do sth like this any more?


Looks like there's something the German people can do, don't let your government cover this up:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5120301476.html
- It is known since a few month. One of the two official cases. From my university is a guy missing too. He helped one of the guys of 9/11 to move to an other flat (carrying furniture).
- And my hometown Bremen got a warning by amnesti international cause we don't do enough to liberate the inhabitant who is missing at Cuba (but a court decided that he don't lose his legal alien resident - normal u lose is if u r longer than 9 month in an other country).
- All students with an islamic background where checked too (they secured the personal data).

- Atm we have a little rumour in Germany. Our politicians try to look surprised that the CIA flew terrorists through Germany to torture them in other countries - but we know that they already knew that like it is written in ur article.
- The BKA (German FBI) made a deal with Syria that they can examine a German in Syria (was moved by the US to there). Reward: They stop an accusal against 2 Syrian agents.
- And the BKA helped the CIA arrest an other one.

and:

The US wasn't built on one day. 1776? ur democracy was the first at the world. But there were slaves and womens can't vote etc. Today ur president canditates r chosen by ur most poewerfull industries and u can deciede which of the 2 u want.
German democracy is much younger - after the first WW u said that our king has to go away and after the 2nd one u made our actual system^^.

[sfhand]

I'd rather be fearful and alert than complacent. We try to protect our citizens through proactivity. We turned a blind eye before, but I think we won't do that again.

So, you don't know about the millenium bombing plot that was stopped in 99? I think it's safe to say the Bush administration turned a blind eye prior to 9/11 or have you never heard of the pdb? But, surrendering ideals because you're afraid, now that's just lame.

[Visigoth]

So, you don't know about the millenium bombing plot that was stopped in 99? I think it's safe to say the Bush administration turned a blind eye prior to 9/11 or have you never heard of the pdb? But, surrendering ideals because you're afraid, now that's just lame.


I never surrendered any of my ideals. YOU suggested it.

[Visigoth]

So, you don't know about the millenium bombing plot that was stopped in 99? I think it's safe to say the Bush administration turned a blind eye prior to 9/11 or have you never heard of the pdb? But, surrendering ideals because you're afraid, now that's just lame.

Do you live in America? What are YOUR ideals?

[sfhand]

Do you live in America? What are YOUR ideals?

I've actually read your posts and know a bit about you. If you did the same you might not have to ask these questions...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

- Nicaragua with Sandino/Garcia (1927)
- Guatemla with Arbas/Armenz (1954)
- Cuba with Batista/Castro (1961)
- Iraq with Qasim/Saddam (1963)
- Congo with Lumumbas/Mubutu (1964)
- Chile with Pinochet/Allende (1973)
- Panama with Torrijos/Noriega (1980)
- Venezuela with Carmona/Chavez (2002)

And what is for u a real democracy?

Lol I said **democracy**

Lol you consider Castro and the Butcher of Bagdad democratic leaders??????????? I shall not even comment on the rest of your list.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Too many blood thirsty Americans for my taste... I'll accept war only as a defensive response to a direct attack - our responses to Pearl Harbor or the Gulf war are good examples.



Don't forget Jose Padilla, an American arrested in America and held for 3 years without charge as if we live in some 3rd rate dictatorship. I cry for my country, for what it has become.

Personally, I'm wondering when our European allies are going to stand up against us, at least on the torture issue. I read a poll recently that has Americans almost equally divided on the torture issue. You have no idea how much the evil represented by those poll results offends me. It is, by and large, the same crowd crowing about our "noble" deeds in Iraq who support torture and the suspension of habeas corpus.

They also defend their media for hiding the truth from them. How many pictures have Americans seen of the death and destruction in Iraq? None. The powers that be think the reason Americans turned against the Vietnam war was because the death and destruction was brought to close to home by the media. Have you seen the mercenary trophy killing video?

Now how about that war on Christmas?http://www.crooksandliars.com/images/2005/12/04/FoxWarOnXmas1.jpg

So you are saying if someone is holding a gun and you are holding a gun and they say I am going to kill you you are not going to attack until they shoot you first.

America of course is not perfect. I would point out Ruby Ridge as an injustice. However, the US is the most just society out there.

I am neither Rupublican nor Democrat. I am an independent.

There was information about Sadam having weapons of mass destruction. He did in fact use chemical agents against US soldiers during the first Desert Storm. He did have ties to Al Quida.

9\11. We were attacked. We went to war on terrorism.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

That's just crap. Less than 3000 Americans died in 2001 from terror attacks while over 42,000 died from auto accidents. Does your fear of perishing as the result of your relationship to cars cause you to stay off the streets?

Looks like there's something the German people can do, don't let your government cover this up:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html

Oh, the terrorists were planing on stoping after 9/11 eh?

[GeorgeKeith]

AND the B*****D (sadam) is about to get off because his rights? have been violated!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

well, how did we got here..? :confused:

oh, i remeber: there was some grudge

- about the german 1.4 patch
- about we germans don't march to war, when you call us

hmmm? the first point i would counter with "guinea pigs", too... :D

to the second i would answer: we couldn't!

all our troops are (still) in ex-yogoslavia and afghanistan, none remaining for iraq.
the german constitution forbids invading of other countries, if not by the will of the UN. even the permission for USAF to fly over germany during the iraq war was an act against our constitution. :eek:
we had some lucrative oil-treaties with saddam. :o
(now we're pi**ed of high oil-prices because you pigheads don't stoop to save some energy... :mad: )


but to ally with you american GAMERS: i own the english version of dungeon lords an have to wait with you for 1.4... :p

MAKE TEA, NOT LOVE!

Yes, American pigheads are the source of all problems. Don't forget pighead blood was shed so that Germany could have a chance at freedom. Unless that is you would prefer Nazi rule. We even helped rebuild your country. What other country goes to war with an aggressor nation and them helps to rebuild the country after the war?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

The US wasn't built on one day. 1776? ur democracy was the first at the world. But there were slaves and womens can't vote etc. Today ur president canditates r chosen by ur most poewerfull industries and u can deciede which of the 2 u want.
German democracy is much younger - after the first WW u said that our king has to go away and after the 2nd one u made our actual system^^.

Anyone can run for president. There are more than 2 candidates every election. We do have 2 major political parties however.

Do you recall Ross Perot running as an independent and geting 20% of the vote?

[sfhand]

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm

The link to Hans Blix's final report to the UN concerning Iraqi disarmament. Clearly no one in Iraq was aiming a gun at us and claiming they were going to kill us. Those inspectors were chased out of Iraq by us so we could start our immoral and illegal war. Claims that Saddam and Al Quaida were linked have been debunked so many times I'm not even going to get into it. Feel free to believe all the BS you want. I'm starting to believe you're Dick Cheney in real life...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm

The link to Hans Blix's final report to the UN concerning Iraqi disarmament. Clearly no one in Iraq was aiming a gun at us and claiming they were going to kill us. Those inspectors were chased out of Iraq by us so we could start our immoral and illegal war. Claims that Saddam and Al Quaida were linked have been debunked so many times I'm not even going to get into it. Feel free to believe all the BS you want. I'm starting to believe you're Dick Cheney in real life...

Drats! I've been found out. Well, as Vice President I don't have a lot to do so I thought I'd try to spread disinformation on gameboards. Anything to spread the evil American empire and undermine the rest of the world's democracies. My goal is to undermine the great democracratic leaders like Castro.

Ah well, I'm off to meet with the prez.

[sfhand]

Make sure you ask him to demand Laura turn down the anti Christian rhetoric...

Laura Bush ended the event by saying, “So have a very, very happy holiday to everybody. Have fun. ”

If Ms. Bush watched more Bill O’Reilly she’d know how offensive her remarks were to Christians:

GUEST: “Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays,” Bill, does not offend Christians.

O’REILLY: Yes, it does. It absolutely does. And I know that for a fact.

[Visigoth]

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm

The link to Hans Blix's final report to the UN concerning Iraqi disarmament. Clearly no one in Iraq was aiming a gun at us and claiming they were going to kill us. Those inspectors were chased out of Iraq by us so we could start our immoral and illegal war. Claims that Saddam and Al Quaida were linked have been debunked so many times I'm not even going to get into it. Feel free to believe all the BS you want. I'm starting to believe you're Dick Cheney in real life...


Look, nothing changes the fact that Saddam is a BAD man. The world is better off without him in power. I hope he either rots in prison or is executed by his own people.

The UN is an old organization that needs a serious restructuring. The world is not aligned as it used to be.

[Visigoth]

I've actually read your posts and know a bit about you. If you did the same you might not have to ask these questions...

Sorry, some of your posts just dont interest me enough to read.

[Waer]

So, are you ready to discuss the war on Christmas yet? It's all the rage on Faux News. You know, the guys with the trite catch phrase "fair and balanced".

I say it's time to do more than put our thinking caps on, I say it's time to start questioning the information we're being fed. Not just asking if it's accurate but why are they feeding us lies and distortions (yes, Faux News is the worst of the bunch but that doesn't leave the others blameless).

Basically you are restating the same thing. As in: it's time for water to be more than wet, its time for it to be liquid!

While you have every right to your opinion, your presentation is flawed and leads me to question your judgement. But hey, isn't that what you are advocating?

[sfhand]

Look, nothing changes the fact that Saddam is a BAD man. The world is better off without him in power. I hope he either rots in prison or is executed by his own people.

The UN is an old organization that needs a serious restructuring. The world is not aligned as it used to be.

what does that have to do with your he's holding a gun point?

[sfhand]

Basically you are restating the same thing. As in: it's time for water to be more than wet, its time for it to be liquid!

While you have every right to your opinion, your presentation is flawed and leads me to question your judgement. But hey, isn't that what you are advocating?

and your shrill analysis leads me to believe you let your opinions get in the way of what others present, i.e. the noise in your head is too loud for you to understand any point that doesn't agree with your paradigm of the world.

Clearly, questioning the motives of the media is not the same as questioning the material they deem newsworthy. Cause and effect are not the same. And you question my judgement and presentation...

[Waer]

Make sure you ask him to demand Laura turn down the anti Christian rhetoric...

Laura Bush ended the event by saying, “So have a very, very happy holiday to everybody. Have fun. ”

If Ms. Bush watched more Bill O’Reilly she’d know how offensive her remarks were to Christians:

GUEST: “Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays,” Bill, does not offend Christians.

O’REILLY: Yes, it does. It absolutely does. And I know that for a fact.

Silly people are nearly always offended by silly things. It is a darn near infallible method to discern who is silly and who is not.

[Waer]

and your shrill analysis leads me to believe you let your opinions get in the way of what others present, i.e. the noise in your head is too loud for you to understand any point that doesn't agree with your paradigm of the world.

Clearly, questioning the motives of the media is not the same as questioning the material they deem newsworthy. Cause and effect are not the same. And you question my judgement and presentation...

I was going to say your presentation speaks for itself, i.e. using demagogic insulting catch phrases (Faux News) does not win people over to your point of view - it only proclaims you a member of the "club" of those people who hold your existing view. That is why it is flawed – it says that you are likely to spout rather than creatively engage. By eliminating the insults, you might sway good reasonable folks to your viewpoint. I don't think you have thoughtfully absorbed my position (is it really noise, is it different from your “club” ideology, what the heck is it?) and, therefore, are probably unqualified to take a stance against it. I might actually be on your side in terms of ideology. In fact, I am. In some profoundly important instances I am - such as the need to question media. You missed that for some reason, probably because you don’t like being schooled about using silly catch phrases (but I could be wrong).

But then I had second thoughts and decided not to.

[sfhand]

Sorry, some of your posts just dont interest me enough to read.

which is precisely why I didn't respond to your "what are your ideals" troll

[sfhand]

I was going to say your presentation speaks for itself, i.e. using demagogic insulting catch phrases (Faux News) does not win people over to your point of view - it only proclaims you a member of the "club" of those people who hold your existing view. That is why it is flawed – it says that you are likely to spout rather than creatively engage. By eliminating the insults, you might sway good reasonable folks to your viewpoint. I don't think you have thoughtfully absorbed my position (is it really noise, is it different from your “club” ideology, what the heck is it?) and, therefore, are probably unqualified to take a stance against it. I might actually be on your side in terms of ideology. In fact, I am. In some profoundly important instances I am - such as the need to question media. You missed that for some reason, probably because you don’t like being schooled about using silly catch phrases (but I could be wrong).

But then I had second thoughts and decided not to.

I wonder what the world would be like if others had your remarkable reasoning powers and wisdom...

Your comments fairly prove my point about the noise in your head (are you insulted by the presentation of this statement, the content, or both?).

I suggest you put your way-above-average powers of observation and reason to good use and analyze the content and presentation of your own post above. Cleverly hinting that I may be spouting insults offers you no real benefit. Realizing that you're doing what you claim I'm doing might be more beneficial to you than any observations you may make about me. Accept this as truth or not, I don't stand to benefit or lose from your decision.

Maybe the reason I may have missed that you agree with me on some issues is to be found in your presentation "style". (yes I'm repeating myself, but sometimes rephrasing and repeating is needed to get one's point across)

Your point about using demagogic insulting catch phrases is, in fact, silly. The term Faux News is, itself, silly and is meant to be. Fox News, that which the term makes fun of, is silly.

But, on this topic, your main deficeincy is a total inability to realize the high probablility that people who watch Fox News would never be swayed by any point contrary to those promoted by Fox News, no matter how eloquently phrased or logically based. You see, they're much too busy trying to figure out how to stop the crazy liberals who are trying to destroy Christmas to be distracted by questions about the truthfulness of the news reporting of Faux News.


Happy Holidays!

[Waer]

I wonder what the world would be like if others had your remarkable reasoning powers and wisdom...

Your comments fairly prove my point about the noise in your head (are you insulted by the presentation of this statement, the content, or both?).

I suggest you put your way-above-average powers of observation and reason to good use and analyze the content and presentation of your own post above. Cleverly hinting that I may be spouting insults offers you no real benefit. Realizing that you're doing what you claim I'm doing might be more beneficial to you than any observations you may make about me. Accept this as truth or not, I don't stand to benefit or lose from your decision.

Maybe the reason I may have missed that you agree with me on some issues is to be found in your presentation "style". (yes I'm repeating myself, but sometimes rephrasing and repeating is needed to get one's point across)

Your point about using demagogic insulting catch phrases is, in fact, silly. The term Faux News is, itself, silly and is meant to be. Fox News, that which the term makes fun of, is silly.

But, on this topic, your main deficeincy is a total inability to realize the high probablility that people who watch Fox News would never be swayed by any point contrary to those promoted by Fox News, no matter how eloquently phrased or logically based. You see, they're much too busy trying to figure out how to stop the crazy liberals who are trying to destroy Christmas to be distracted by questions about the truthfulness of the news reporting of Faux News.


Happy Holidays!

Fellow readers, you may now clearly see why I decided not to.

[sfhand]

Fellow readers, you may now clearly see why I decided not to.


Thats just soooo clever, tell us, have you quit beating your wife yet?

[Visigoth]

Dang! Yew fellers yews some BIIIIG words, I tell ya! Sheewt, I feel right stewpid naw.


:rolleyes:

[Visigoth]

what does that have to do with your he's holding a gun point?


A sphincter says: "What?"

[Waer]

Dang! Yew fellers yews some BIIIIG words, I tell ya! Sheewt, I feel right stewpid naw.


:rolleyes:

You frequently crack me up. My Dad calls them 3 dollar words. :)

[Phaidon]

Lol I said **democracy**

Lol you consider Castro and the Butcher of Bagdad democratic leaders??????????? I shall not even comment on the rest of your list.
- Batista got the power trough a military revolt and was a dictator. The population of Cuba made with Castro a revolution against him.
- The Iraq king was pro US and gave them the right for the oil. The population lead by Quasim started a revolution and got the the oil back for the country.
Saddam was supported by the CIA to get the power in the Iraq and Quasim was killed.

These countries rn't real democracys but the circumstances for the population were better before the US gave them a dictator (ok they removed Saddam after they noiticed that this was a wrong decision).

Chile and Venezuela should be democracys for u 2.

[sfhand]

- Batista got the power trough a military revolt and was a dictator. The population of Cuba made with Castro a revolution against him.
- The Iraq king was pro US and gave them the right for the oil. The population lead by Quasim started a revolution and got the the oil back for the country.
Saddam was supported by the CIA to get the power in the Iraq and Quasim was killed.

These countries rn't real democracys but the circumstances for the population were better before the US gave them a dictator (ok they removed Saddam after they noiticed that this was a wrong decision).

Chile and Venezuela should be democracys for u 2.

You could have easily added Iran to the list. Our meddling in their internal affairs led to the current Islamic government there. Our meddling in Iraq will lead to a similar government there. Yes, we've supported many dictators, including Saddam. So much for noble causes...

[sfhand]

Then there is the Faux News non-issue. Some have gone off tilting at windmills claiming using the term Faux News is using a demagogic insulting catch phrase that puts the user in some "club". Well, we all know that our culture is reflected and influenced by television. In light of this I figured I'd put up this image from the comedy channel (note: COMEDY channel).

http://dailydissent.org/images/tdspropaganda120505.jpg

In this case the term refers to a story about our government paying Iraqi papers to publish made up stories about the war. Apparently our cause is so noble that the average Iraqi is unable to realize it without our propaganda to help him/her.

[Phaidon]

I looked sth about Cuba up. I unterstand this, is that right?

U "liberated" Cuba during the Aamerican-Spanish war. But u gave them their freedom only cause they have to write that the US can create military bases on Cuba to protect the rights of Cuba. One of these relicts is Guatanamo.
The dictator of Cuba Gerado Machado lost 1933 the support of the US. With 3 destroyers u forced the population to accept the new dictatorship of Carlos Manuel de Céspedes y Ortíz. But the population was against him. Fulgencio Batista made a military revolt against this governmant but became a servant of the US too. He left the country 1944 but 1952 he came back (supported by the US?) and removed the democratic president Carlos Prío Socarrás - who was corrupt and US friendly and would lose the next election (cause his opponent commitet suicide on air to start a revolution) - He "flew" to the US and supported Fulgencio Batista. Fulgencio Batista became a dictator and the US economie developt Cuba to the Maison derriere of America. The population became poor and the workers wanted to get more rights but he used his power to control this. So 20 000 persons were killed.
Cause this crime Fidel Castro accused the dictator but the court didn't accept it. So he used the constitutionel right of resistance and started a revolution. He was succesful and is leader till toady.

So Castro is the first leader of Cuba since 70 years who isn't a servant of the US?
And why r u against him? U supported Saddam eh.. Cuba has sth like soft socialism and the majority of the population isn't total against him.

Cause Iran u r one reason why they became that what they r today but u didn't wanted this result^^.

[XC6216]

Yes, American pigheads are the source of all problems. Don't forget pighead blood was shed so that Germany could have a chance at freedom. Unless that is you would prefer Nazi rule. We even helped rebuild your country. What other country goes to war with an aggressor nation and them helps to rebuild the country after the war?

gosh, i was talking about actual politics, not history...

but yes, i agree that american pigheads are the source of all problems.
and your "good intention bonus" depleted shortly after ww2. name me one other country america invaded and made a "happy nation" after 1945. well, thanks for rebuilding germany, but don't tell me that was an act of pure charity... (after 1989 i was puzzeld: should i thank russia for rebuilding germany, too?)
what really gives me the creep are the analogies between nazi-germany and post-9/11-america. you are on a terrible wrong way repeating the faults of my ancestors instead of learning from them...
and as a good advice from a friend: "don't vote an austrian for president!"
(yes, your constitution says blahblahblah... but i couldn't hold back this one :D )

[Phaidon]

Don't forget pighead blood was shed so that Germany could have a chance at freedom.
Do u know the "Morgenthau plan"?

[Shock]

Pssst!

http://www.fireball20xl.com/stfu.jpg

[sfhand]

gosh, i was talking about actual politics, not history...

but yes, i agree that american pigheads are the source of all problems.
and your "good intention bonus" depleted shortly after ww2. name me one other country america invaded and made a "happy nation" after 1945. well, thanks for rebuilding germany, but don't tell me that was an act of pure charity... (after 1989 i was puzzeld: should i thank russia for rebuilding germany, too?)
what really gives me the creep are the analogies between nazi-germany and post-9/11-america. you are on a terrible wrong way repeating the faults of my ancestors instead of learning from them...
and as a good advice from a friend: "don't vote an austrian for president!"
(yes, your constitution says blahblahblah... but i couldn't hold back this one :D )

There are many Americans who notice the similarities between pre ww2 Germany and the direction our current leadership is taking us. And don't worry about the Austrian, he couldn't be elected dog-catcher in CA now, like the prez, he has spent all his political capital on a losing cause.

Another point I'd like to make, our military doesn't keep us free; the people who fought and died for our freedom in the Revolutionary War were average citizens fighting against an established army. Every country has a military and not every populace is free. An informed citizenry is what keeps us free. Unfortunately the corporate media is not keeping the citizenry informed and media outlets like Fox News are pumping propaganda as news.

Those in America who support immoral and illegal wars, torture, depriving people of their constitutional rights by holding them without access to the legal system, they are the people who threaten our freedom. Some hold those views because they are uninformed and some hold them because they are hateful bigots. I have a friend from Texas who recently rejoined the USMC as an NCO so he could fight in Iraq. Here is what he posted on the site I knew him from when asked how things were going:

"Things are going great! Blowing **** up and shooting at doon coons for a living.. what more could a grunt want?"

Somehow I don't get that he's over there fighting for a noble cause... and I don't see how our friendship will survive the obviously racist attitudes he holds. But I know this, people like him aren't protecting our freedom. It reminds me of the Jack Nicholson character in "A Few Good Men". My answer to them is this; "No, I don't want or need you on that wall. I'm more than capable of defending myself, especially against the likes of you."

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

You could have easily added Iran to the list. Our meddling in their internal affairs led to the current Islamic government there. Our meddling in Iraq will lead to a similar government there. Yes, we've supported many dictators, including Saddam. So much for noble causes...

So Iran is a democracy now too. Interesting. What country is not a democracy?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

So Castro is the first leader of Cuba since 70 years who isn't a servant of the US?
And why r u against him? U supported Saddam eh.. Cuba has sth like soft socialism and the majority of the population isn't total against him.

Cause Iran u r one reason why they became that what they r today but u didn't wanted this result^^.

So Castro = good guy, Bush =communist facist murdering dictator.

Casto of course allows honest elections, eh? So you can truly judge his "popular" support. Please.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

gosh, i was talking about actual politics, not history...

but yes, i agree that american pigheads are the source of all problems.
and your "good intention bonus" depleted shortly after ww2. name me one other country america invaded and made a "happy nation" after 1945. well, thanks for rebuilding germany, but don't tell me that was an act of pure charity... (after 1989 i was puzzeld: should i thank russia for rebuilding germany, too?)
what really gives me the creep are the analogies between nazi-germany and post-9/11-america. you are on a terrible wrong way repeating the faults of my ancestors instead of learning from them...
and as a good advice from a friend: "don't vote an austrian for president!"
(yes, your constitution says blahblahblah... but i couldn't hold back this one :D )

Wow. You really do believe the world would be a utopia without the US don't you? America is the reason why the world has not been taken over by various dictators. America is the reason why democracy is spreading around the globe. America the free. Freedom will continue to spread because of America. America the free.

America is the reason why the Berlin wall came down so no, both East and West Germany owes America thanks, not Soviet Russia.

So you are saying that America has the goal of taking over the world eh?

Perhaps you think communism or nazism is supperior to democracy.Communism is dying, thanks to America. Dictatorship is becoming a thing of the past. One day perhaps you will wake up when you are able to cast aside whatever prejudices you have against America and see her in all her glory. America is not perfect but she is a shining example to the rest of the world.

[Shock]

http://sts.synflood.de/dump/fun/Stfu.jpg

[Phaidon]

So Castro = good guy, Bush =communist facist murdering dictator
? I never said that.
Castro is a guy who liberated his country from a dictatorship which didn't care about the good of his population.
Castro care about it but his system isn't a real democracy. There r bad circumstances in the prisons, they still have the death penalty and a opposition (sponsored by the US) is allowed but it have no influence. But Protugal and Greek had still 1974 dictators, some nations in the middle east have kings till today so that this delay isn't the point. The point is that the dictator which was supported by the US killed 30 000 civilians and Cuba was a casualty of the US economy.
So I wouldn't call Castro good I would say that he is better than Batista.

Bush is a religious guy who care about his country too (the economy and Christian values). Cause that he was supported by the most important industry of his country - the war and oil industry. He want to defend his nation and think that he is chosen to use the power of the US to liberate the world.
The way he do that is torture, war, death penalty and crime. He spits on the human rights, he is pissing on the Geneva Conventions and burns the Hague Conventions. He limit the rights of US citizens and took all rights from not US citizens away. His lawyers told him that he don't have to justify his decisions and isn't bound to any right on earth.
So I call Bush a religious fanatic who want the best for his country with all instruments.


You really do believe the world would be a utopia without the US don't you?
I am happy that the US and not the Nazis or Communist rule the world. If u give a human power he will abuse his authority. The US do that too but not in dimensions like the Nazis would had do that if they had the possibility.
But only cause the US r better than Stalin I don't admire them. Same with Batista and Castro.


America is not perfect but she is a shining example to the rest of the world.
Shining example in practicing torture?
Shining example in practicing death penalty?
Shining example ....

I am sry but I think many (outsite the US) don't think so, a few song texts:

Subway to Sally
Falscher Heiland
Wir haben die Tage mit beten verbracht.
wir flehten zu dir in jeder Nacht!
Dein Wort vor Augen, dein Bild an der Wand,
gedruckt und verbreitet im ganzen Land.

Du hast uns verraten, verkauft und verlacht,
hast niemals ein Wunder für uns vollbracht.
Es gibt nur noch Rache für deinen Betrug.
Es gibt kein Erbarmen, genug ist genug.

REFRAIN:
Du bist der falsche Heiland,
Dein ist der jüngste Tag.
Wir singen und wir tanzen,
und pinkeln auf dein Grab.
Hallelujah, falscher Heiland!
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah, falscher Heiland!
Hallelujah!

Du hast uns gepredigt und Lehren erteilt,
hast niemals die Lahmen und Blinden geheilt.
Hast Reichtum versprochen, hast Lügen erzählt,
und hast uns mit heiligen Liedern gequält.

Im Glauben an dich zogen wir in den Krieg
dort sind wir gefallen es gab keinen Sieg.
Es gibt nur noch Rache für deinen Betrug.
Es gibt kein Erbarmen, genug ist genug.

Refrain

Wir werden dich suchen mit Engelsgeduld.
Wir werden dich finden, du zahlst die Schuld.
Es gibt nur noch Rache für deinen Betrug.
Es gibt kein Erbarmen, genug ist genug.

REFRAIN:
Du bist der falsche Heiland,
Dein ist der jüngste Tag.
Wir singen und wir tanzen,
und pinkeln auf dein Grab.
Hallelujah, falscher Heiland!
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah, falscher Heiland!
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah, falscher Heiland!
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah, falscher Heiland!
Hallelujah!

AMERIKA - Rammstein

Refrain:
We're all living in America,
America is wunderbar.
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.

Wenn getanzt wird, will ich führen,
auch wenn ihr euch alleine dreht,
lasst euch ein wenig kontrollieren,
Ich zeige euch wie's richtig geht.
Wir bilden einen lieben Reigen,
die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen,
Musik kommt aus dem Weißen Haus,
Und vor Paris steht Mickey Maus.

We're all living in America...

Ich kenne Schritte, die sehr nützen,
und werde euch vor Fehltritt schützen,
und wer nicht tanzen will am Schluss,
weiß noch nicht, dass er tanzen muss!
Wir bilden einen lieben Reigen,
ich werde Euch die Richtung zeigen,
nach Afrika kommt Santa Claus,
und vor Paris steht Mickey Maus.

Refrain:
We're all living in America,
America is wunderbar.
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.
We're all living in America,
Coca-Cola, Wonderbra,
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.

This is not a love song,
this is not a love song.
I don't sing my mother tongue,
No, this is not a love song.

We're all living in America,
Amerika is wunderbar.
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.
We're all living in America,
Coca-Cola, sometimes WAR,
We're all living in America,
Amerika, Amerika.

[sfhand]

Communism is dying, thanks to America.

That is rich! You're truly funny. You do know that China, one of our "most favored nations", is a communist country, right? You do know that they are the ones floating our economy with loans, right? Yessir, they're in dire straits aren't they... and the great irony is the money they're lending us to pay for this war of choice along with the money they're spending to build up their military comes from the good old USA.

I try to buy American but it seems like everything is made in China these days. America has become the great debtor nation and I'm not referring to just its government. The population carries a larger percent of debt than at any other time in history and personal savings are at an all time low. But don't worry about it, head on down to Wal-Mart and buy another cart full of crap and keep telling yourself that mighty America defeated communism.

[sfhand]

But only cause the US r better than Stalin I don't admire them. Same with Batista and Castro.

I touched on this before. Some Americans are satisfied with being not quite as bad as Stalin, Hitler, Amin, and other notoriously bad leaders (I think we are working our way to being as bad and privately I include Bush in the group because as an American he should know better and be held to a higher standard for his criminal policies). Then there are others who think the bar of acceptability should be set a little higher. I have faith that in the not-too-distant future there will be a shift to the left in America. The combination of foreign and domestic policy blunders, not to mention the numerous Republican corruption based legal problems, will wake up those who have been slumbering through this mess.

[Shock]

Some of you people are really scarey.

[Phaidon]

Rammstein German text - America:

If u dance I will lead
even if u dance alone
let us control u a little bit
I show u the right way
We create around dance
Freedom play on all violins
The music cames from the white house
And infront of Paris stays Mickey Mouse.

I know some usefull steps
I will protect u from make a false step
And who isn't dancing at the end
Don't know that he have to.
We create a round dance
I will show u the right direction
To africa cames Santa Claus
And infront of Paris stays Mickey Mouse.

This is not a love song,
this is not a love song.
I don't sing my mother tongue,
No, this is not a love song.

Subway to Sally - Wrong Redeemer

We spend the days with praying to u
We pled to u each night
Ur word infront our eyes and ur picture at the wall
Printed and spread in the whole country

You betrayed, sold us and laughted
U never effect a mircacle
There is only revenge for ur fraud
There is no pitying, enough is enough

U r the wrong redeemer
Yours is the judgement day
We r singing and dancing
and pissing on ur grave.

Halleluja - wrong redeemer
Halleluja!
Halleluja - wrong redeemer
Halleluja!

U preached and teached us
never healed the blinds or lames
U promised wealth - told lies
And tormented us with holy songs

Our faith in u lead us into war
We died there there was no victory
There is only revenge for ur fraud
There is no pitying, enough is enough

U r the wrong redeemer
Yours is the judgement day
We r singing and dancing
and pissing on ur grave.

Halleluja - wrong redeemer
Halleluja!
Halleluja - wrong redeemer
Halleluja!

(Text was written before 9/11 and at the cover ar Bush AND Saddam).

[Shock]

Monkees Song Lyrics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daydream Believer
By John Stewart

Oh, I could hide 'neath the wings
Of the bluebird as she sings.
The six o'clock alarm would never ring.
But it rings and I rise,
Wipe the sleep out of my eyes.
My shavin' razor's cold and it stings.

Cheer up, Sleepy Jean.
Oh, what can it mean.
To a daydream believer
And a homecoming queen.

You once thought of me
As a white knight on a steed.
Now you know how happy I can be.
Oh, and our good times start and end
Without dollar one to spend.
But how much, baby, do we really need.

Cheer up, Sleepy Jean.
Oh, what can it mean.
To a daydream believer
And a homecoming queen.
Cheer up, Sleepy Jean.
Oh, what can it mean.
To a daydream believer
And a homecoming queen.

[Instrumental interlude]

Cheer up, Sleepy Jean.
Oh, what can it mean.
To a daydream believer
And a homecoming queen.
[Repeat and fade]

[Visigoth]

That is rich! You're truly funny. You do know that China, one of our "most favored nations", is a communist country, right? You do know that they are the ones floating our economy with loans, right? Yessir, they're in dire straits aren't they... and the great irony is the money they're lending us to pay for this war of choice along with the money they're spending to build up their military comes from the good old USA.

I try to buy American but it seems like everything is made in China these days. America has become the great debtor nation and I'm not referring to just its government. The population carries a larger percent of debt than at any other time in history and personal savings are at an all time low. But don't worry about it, head on down to Wal-Mart and buy another cart full of crap and keep telling yourself that mighty America defeated communism.


I have to admit, I hate the fact that so many things are made in China. Thats started a few years back with previous administrations though... now its a juggernaught. If we ever go to war with those guys we'll have nothing to buy! ;)

.....would create a WHOLE LOT of jobs here tho... :eek:

[Visigoth]

Frank Zappa Lyrics:
_________________________

Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
(Mama!)
She could do your laundry 'n cook for you
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
(Mama!)
You're really kinda stupid 'n ugly too
Well
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
She could do your laundry 'n cook for you
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
You're really kinda stupid 'n ugly too

You ain't really made for bein' out in the street
Ain't much hope for a fool like you
'Cause if you play the game, you will get beat

Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
(Mama!)
She could do your laundry 'n cook for you
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
(Mama!)
You're really kinda stupid 'n ugly too
And
You should never smoke in pajamas
You might start a fire 'n burn yer face
Maybe you'll return to Managua
Well
You could go unnoticed in such a place

Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
(Mama!)
She could do your laundry 'n cook for you
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
(Mama!)
You're really kinda stupid 'n ugly too
And
You should never smoke in pajamas
You might start a fire 'n burn yer face
Maybe you'll return to Managua
You could go unnoticed in such a place

You ain't really made for bein' out in the street
Ain't much hope for a fool like you
'Cause if you play the game, you will get beat

Well . . .
Yo' mama
Go on homeward
Yo' mama

[Phaidon]

"Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone, you may
still exist, but you have ceased to live."
(Mark Twain)

„Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently.... "
(Rosa Luxemburg)

"Nothing is more difficult and nothing requires more character than to find oneself in open opposition to one's time (and those one loves) and to say loudly: No!"
(Kurt Tucholsky)

"War don't fight terrorism - it creates it"
(Gregor Gysi)

"Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority."
(Arthur Schopenhauer)

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

That is rich! You're truly funny. You do know that China, one of our "most favored nations", is a communist country, right? You do know that they are the ones floating our economy with loans, right? Yessir, they're in dire straits aren't they... and the great irony is the money they're lending us to pay for this war of choice along with the money they're spending to build up their military comes from the good old USA.

I try to buy American but it seems like everything is made in China these days. America has become the great debtor nation and I'm not referring to just its government. The population carries a larger percent of debt than at any other time in history and personal savings are at an all time low. But don't worry about it, head on down to Wal-Mart and buy another cart full of crap and keep telling yourself that mighty America defeated communism.

Yes, China is the last of the large communist nations. It will fall to democracy in time.

Our ever so wise congress thinks American workers can compete with slave labor. That is why Chinese goods abound in America.

Free trade between countries with very dissimilar standards of living doesn't work.

China has huge tarrifs on American goods she allows to come into her borders and flat out denies the entries of some American products.

[Visigoth]

Yep... we are just too niiiiiiice.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I touched on this before. Some Americans are satisfied with being not quite as bad as Stalin, Hitler, Amin, and other notoriously bad leaders (I think we are working our way to being as bad and privately I include Bush in the group because as an American he should know better and be held to a higher standard for his criminal policies). Then there are others who think the bar of acceptability should be set a little higher. I have faith that in the not-too-distant future there will be a shift to the left in America. The combination of foreign and domestic policy blunders, not to mention the numerous Republican corruption based legal problems, will wake up those who have been slumbering through this mess.

Lol! You include Bush with Stalin and Hitler!

Lol! America is becoming as bad as Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union!

I am an independent. I would like to see both the Republican and Democratic parties shaken up. However, I very much hope that the country does not shift to the left and doubt that it will any time in the near future.

[Phaidon]

If u count the millions of persons who died defending their freedom against the US u will get a number which is in the same league of Hitler and Stalin.


Lol! America is becoming as bad as Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union!
U only know black and white?

[Visigoth]

If u count the millions of persons who died defending their freedom against the US u will get a number which is in the same league of Hitler and Stalin.


U only know black and white?


OMFG. ROFL.

[Phaidon]

OMFG. ROFL.
And this way think ur allies - now try to imagine what the casualties think about u.

[Visigoth]

And this way think ur allies - now try to imagine what the casualties think about u.


My gut feeling is that the dead don't think too much. The wounded are probably thinking: "Why did we mess with the U.S.?"

[sfhand]

My gut feeling is that the dead don't think too much. The wounded are probably thinking: "Why did we mess with the U.S.?"

Ummm, without resorting to revisionist history, please tell us when they "messed with the U.S".

[Visigoth]

Ummm, without resorting to revisionist history, please tell us when they "messed with the U.S".

:rolleyes:

Ok, you've convinced me. The U.S. is an awful place filled with awful people who do awful things to other countries filled with wonderfully polite terrorists and suicide bombers who would like nothing more than to go back to their lives being oppressed and poor while thier glorious and loving leaders take all their hard earned money and build beautiful palaces and eat the finest foods while they live in quiet and simply fabulous squallor barely scratching out an existence based on economic and educational values that were in place before the time of Jesus. They don't mind that the smallest fraction of their people are wealthy and healthy. Yes, you're right.... we really shouldn't "attempt" to help them out at all. We are just big bullies who don't care about anyone but ourselves.

[Shock]

http://host246.ipowerweb.com/~justapla/stfu.jpg

[sfhand]

That cup of stfu is getting cold. This should warm it up for you:
http://dailydissent.org/video/hardball120605b.wmv

[Shock]

http://home.sc.rr.com/jbernick/gb-stfu.JPG

[Phaidon]

My gut feeling is that the dead don't think too much. The wounded are probably thinking: "Why did we mess with the U.S.?"
The dead one thought before they died "Lever dod as Slaav" - "Better dead than slave" or "Better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees.". That the funny thing with u US guys. U really think that the one who died thought that they had a chance. I heard a US scientest saying "If we have better weapons our opponents will surrender cause they have no chance". U don't resist cause u have a chance to win u resist cause u can't live without ur freedom.
And the question "mess" is wrong. They had no other choice.
And the wounded one think why didn't I died.


Ok, you've convinced me. The U.S. is an awful place filled with awful people who do awful things to other countries filled with wonderfully polite terrorists and suicide bombers who would like nothing more than to go back to their lives being oppressed and poor while thier glorious and loving leaders take all their hard earned money and build beautiful palaces and eat the finest foods while they live in quiet and simply fabulous squallor barely scratching out an existence based on economic and educational values that were in place before the time of Jesus. They don't mind that the smallest fraction of their people are wealthy and healthy. Yes, you're right.... we really shouldn't "attempt" to help them out at all. We are just big bullies who don't care about anyone but ourselves.
The US are a country of blind men who don't see that their actions r the source for their burden. 3rd Iraq war is the best what could happen for Al Quida.
The US are a country of a population which think that they have the right to rule the world and call it freedom - and if someone don't want to be ruled or "liberated" by them they think that they have the right to kill him - and they don't think it they do it.

(But imho it isn't the US - cause the US isn't lead by the population. It is lead like all other capitalistic nations by the economie. Cooperations rule the planet and not the population)

[Phaidon]

Cause u seem to think that I have a extraordinary opinion, a short overview of the German ones (even if the Iraq would have WMD's):

- Neo-nazis: No (German) blood for American imperalism.
- Far-left: No support for US capitalism.
- Socialists: No illegal war against our constitution.
- Conservatives: War cause we have to follow our Allies.

Imho u feel that the US can do all what they want but it is not so bad like my worsest dream and they do particular things where not only theyselves have adventages. So a war against the Iraq to control Europe with wrong reasons is ok if u liberate the population but only if the circumstances after the war r better than before and this isn't the case. And cause u had a plan for the oil but not for the population I was against this war - only to follow u because we want oil too isn't a reason for me.
But only cause the US rn't the worsest nation which rules the planet I don't have to be satisfied cause these reasons which concern ur foreign politic:

- That it includes war.
- That they use it as a legitimate instrument for their economic advantages (list I posted - if they liberate a population or ethnic group or defend theirself it is ok even if they do it for advantages).
- That they use weapons like the atomic bomb and r developing mini nukes as bunker buster. That they still use cluster bombs in residential areas, still use napalm against humans and land mines against persons etc. In brief weapons which all civilized nations don't use.
- That u created the status of an unlawful combatant who has no human rights and decieded that US citizens have humans only to treat as humans inside the US. That means torture like in the darkest ancient age - to protect ur human values u said. Imho u use it to protect ur nation but that has nothin to do with humanity.

Things u hurt:
- Genueva Conventions
- Hague Convention
- Human rights
- UN
- Law of nations

I thought that the US citizens don't know that the US government change systems to dictatorships only for economic advantges but if u know and accept it this has nothin to do with patriotism it is nationalism and at last civilated or related to humanity.
And if u say that u don't care about be civilated or not cause u have the power and can do want u want don't cry about the payback - terrorism.

btw. Rammstein - Amerika got the European Music Award.

[Phaidon]

Wow. You really do believe the world would be a utopia without the US don't you?
No, with the US the world became particular better. Cause the US other countries fear to attack other countries or to torture persons. The only nation who don't fear the US r the US itself and cause that they still making wars and torture persons - if an other country would do what the US do and it has no WMD's u would invade it.

America is the reason why the world has not been taken over by various dictators.
Cause u protected us we r thanksfull but do u still have to be thanksfull if only the dictator was changed?

America is the reason why democracy is spreading around the globe. America the free.
This is the point. America is free! And u spread democracy arout the world! Right! But the nations who becames democracies rn't free - the only one who is free r the US. These populations r only free to chose the guy who will recive the American orders. But that t r free has nothin to do with democracy the reason is power.

Freedom will continue to spread because of America. America the free.
U spread American freedom out. But which kind of freedom is that? It is the right of the fittest? A guy who is intelligent, work and has a good job get money - the other not. Is that freedom? If u work u earn money - that can be ok. But if the other one had bad circumstances in the childhood which were created by this system most them will never be able to get a job like this.
Ur freedom is not the freedom of people - it is the freedom of money - capitalism. If a guy has money he is free - if not he is not. U spread the freedom of money ot around the world. And the money in concentrated in the US - so the world is rult bei the US.


America is the reason why the Berlin wall came down so no, both East and West Germany owes America thanks, not Soviet Russia.
We r thanksfull - but only cause u made good things in the past u rn't "allowed" to make criminal actions in the future.


So you are saying that America has the goal of taking over the world eh?
It already has.


Perhaps you think communism or nazism is supperior to democracy.
It depends which aim u have. At a democracy u have the possibility to lead the country with ur vote. But if the majority want to surpress a minority it is not good only cause it was decieded by a democracy.

Communism is dying, thanks to America.
Real Communism never exists - and it will never exists - cause it is utopia and requieres humans with humanity and not just humans like democracy.
Dictaturship of humans - but u replaced it by the dictatorship of money.

One day perhaps you will wake up when you are able to cast aside whatever prejudices you have against America and see her in all her glory.
I know the American "glory" cause I can't deal to live with the feeling not to be able to do sth against that I flew into my fantasy. I hope that u will wake up one day and see what the source of terrorism is - u.

America is not perfect but she is a shining example to the rest of the world.
U seem to be blinded by the glowing freedom so that u can't see what u r burning for YOUR flame of freedom.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

<<<<<<The US are a country of a population which think that they have the right to rule the world and call it freedom >>>>>

Well, if we rule the world I guess it is time for us to start taxing the rest of the world instead of giving the tax dollars of the American people to the rest of the world. What tax rate would you suggest is appropriate.

The US citizens should now no longer work. We will live off the rest of the world.

Also, we need to look at changing the title of the President. Should it become Emperor or King?

Also, should we now refer to Germany for instance as the Territory of Germany instead of calling her a nation?

From now on no other country should refer to its leader as president, chancellor, prime minister, king, queen, ect. Now they should call themselves only governor perhaps since they are only exercising the authority of the US government.

Well, there is much for the Evil American Empire to decide. Fear and tremble as you await our decisions.

[Phaidon]

Well, if we rule the world I guess it is time for us to start taxing the rest of the world
We allready do. In several kinds. We pay money to the UN (controlled by the US - remember the wiretapping) have to fulfill corvees like give troops to ur command like in Afgahnistan.

instead of giving the tax dollars of the American people to the rest of the world. What tax rate would you suggest is appropriate. The US citizens should now no longer work. We will live off the rest of the world.
U should say it ur government. They prefer to give the UN money to US concerns who for example rebuilt the Iraq - exspecially to concerns which have connections to ur government/sponsored their election campaign. But these concerns have not to work for all this money the US gave for example 3 time more money for a thing than normal.
U have to give money to the Un to but u just don't do it.

Also, we need to look at changing the title of the President. Should it become Emperor or King?
We in Europe call the US "Imperium Americanum" so Emperor would fit.

Also, should we now refer to Germany for instance as the Territory of Germany instead of calling her a nation? From now on no other country should refer to its leader as president, chancellor, prime minister, king, queen, ect. Now they should call themselves only governor perhaps since they are only exercising the authority of the US government.

No it isn't necessary - this system is called vassal states. We have a government and a own army but u have troops in our country and our troops have to support u like on the war on terrorism.
And in Germany our leader is the chancellor not the president^^.

Well, there is much for the Evil American Empire to decide. Fear and tremble as you await our decisions.
For the most of us in Europe it is ok (economical view) - we have advantages from the system. But we don't want to lose our values of morality.

edit: The US said that members of the US rn't allowed anymore to torture persons outside the US. Till know it was only forbidden inside the US. So there will no change. Like before u will fly persons to for example Syria and let them torture by them.

[XC6216]

say what you like, but americas image as an upright democracy is wrecked for years thanks to mr. bush and his puppet masters... but in this time of trouble we see, that not all americans are such deaf dumb and blind as your government expects. so organisations like moveon.org get more and more supply. this i would call patrotism, not waving a flag or owning a gun. stand up for YOUR rights and keep YOUR country clean of tyranny and corruption. and i will have an eye on MY germany... ;)

a german leftie

[XC6216]

i like to have the final say...
could someone close this thread, please? :D

[Visigoth]

What have I done???


-hangs head low-

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

What have I done???


-hangs head low-

We are Americans, members of the most diablolical nation to ever exist. We are the cause of all the world's problems and have been since the dawn of time. It is America who is Great Satan. America was in the Garden of Eden and tempted Eve to eat the forbiden fruit and give it to her husband.

Without America there would be no liars, no thieves, no child molesters, no murderers. Without America everyone would live in freedom and prosperity and bliss. Now all the world is oppressed and in abject poverty because of America.

Is this not enough?

[sfhand]

There's really no need for the hystrionics. It seems every issue needs to be taken to the extreme, you're either with us or against us. That is a very limiting view and one that doesn't reflect reality.

You've talked about how evil Saddam is/was and how we've mad the world a better place by removing him from power. Shrub has too. If that's true, why was our government supporting Saddam militarily when we knew he was using chemical weapons against Iran and the Kurds. Weren't we complicit in the atrocities when we knew how he was using our aid? To use the extremist position, we were with Saddam in the gassing of the Iranians and Kurds because we weren't against him. So, how can we complain about his actions now?

[Shock]

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/wheel-stfu.jpg

[sfhand]

so sad, too bad

[Crimthan]

We are Americans, members of the most diablolical nation to ever exist. We are the cause of all the world's problems and have been since the dawn of time. It is America who is Great Satan. America was in the Garden of Eden and tempted Eve to eat the forbiden fruit and give it to her husband.

Without America there would be no liars, no thieves, no child molesters, no murderers. Without America everyone would live in freedom and prosperity and bliss. Now all the world is oppressed and in abject poverty because of America.

Is this not enough?


ROFLMAO. Need I express myself more?

[Phaidon]

Terrorism is the only language which u understand?

[Visigoth]

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/wheel-stfu.jpg


Why do you bother, Shock? If you REALLY want us to STFU, then why don't YOU STFU, start your own STFU thread and GTFO.

[Phaidon]

It is possible that he is a kind of salesman of these websites?^^

[Shock]

Why do you bother, Shock? If you REALLY want us to STFU, then why don't YOU STFU, start your own STFU thread and GTFO.


Listen to yourself. You've gone psycho on everyone here but yourself. Why don't you go make your own messageboard with the 10 year old poster children if you're going to join in and act like them?

Who gives a crap what a bunch of these Skinheads think? Let them live in their little cesspool world and blame everyone but themselves if that's what they want to do. You're not going to change their way of thinking and they aren't going to change ours.

So, be the intelligent one and...


http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/stfuniversity.jpg

[sfhand]

Listen to yourself. You've gone psycho on everyone here but yourself. Why don't you go make your own messageboard with the 10 year old poster children if you're going to join in and act like them?

Who gives a crap what a bunch of these Skinheads think? Let them live in their little cesspool world and blame everyone but themselves if that's what they want to do. You're not going to change their way of thinking and they aren't going to change ours.

So, be the intelligent one and...


http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/stfuniversity.jpg


so sad, too bad

[sfhand]

From testimony by Republican fundraiser Michael Scanlon at Wednesday's (11/03/05?)Republican-run Senate hearings:

In plain terms, Scanlon confessed the source code of recent Republican electoral victories: target religious conservatives, distract everyone else, and then railroad through complex initiatives.

"The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees," Scanlon wrote in the memo, which was read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. "Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them." The brilliance of this strategy was twofold: Not only would most voters not know about an initiative to protect Coushatta gambling revenues, but religious "wackos" could be tricked into supporting gambling at the Coushatta casino even as they thought they were opposing it.


Do you people get it yet? You're the "wackos" according to your own people.

You've been played.

[Shock]

so sad, too bad

It's "too bad, so sad", moron. Go bury yourself in more computer game fantasy worlds because I don't think you can distinguish between the two.

[sfhand]

It's "too bad, so sad", moron. Go bury yourself in more computer game fantasy worlds because I don't think you can distinguish between the two.

Nice personal attack. I think the world of you too!!!!!

(nice of you to prove my point though, thanks!)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You need someone to explain to you that in your case the order was spot on...

[Visigoth]

Listen to yourself. You've gone psycho on everyone here but yourself. Why don't you go make your own messageboard with the 10 year old poster children if you're going to join in and act like them?

Who gives a crap what a bunch of these Skinheads think? Let them live in their little cesspool world and blame everyone but themselves if that's what they want to do. You're not going to change their way of thinking and they aren't going to change ours.




You have a point, but hey, I'm FAR from psycho.

Besides, I had FUN getting into it a bit on these boards... which is way more than I can say for this shithol* of a game.


Visigoth, signing off.

[Shock]

The STFUs weren't directed personally at you to begin with. You have a bunch of "popups" like SFHand who pops out of nowhere and is basically a nobody instigating World War III. Let them live their vacuum sealed lives.

[Phaidon]

- I am sry I am no skinhead (and skinheads r orginial not nazis - they have only a similar look).
- We few fools r the rest of the world. 5 billion against 250 million Americans. But our opinion don't count cause we r no Americans.
- And I am 20 years old, not 10.
- If u would care what we think u would know that that what u do to fight terrorism supports it. And that the source is ur capitalistic foreign politic including war. If u want to live in peace u have to destroy the whole world or to change ur foreign politics. And I think u will do the first one cause this way ur government and their concerns earn money.

[mollly_red]

- I am sry I am no skinhead (and skinheads r orginial not nazis - they have only a similar look).
- We few fools r the rest of the world. 5 billion against 250 million Americans. But our opinion don't count cause we r no Americans.
- And I am 20 years old, not 10.
- If u would care what we think u would know that that what u do to fight terrorism supports it. And that the source is ur capitalistic foreign politic including war. If u want to live in peace u have to destroy the whole world or to change ur foreign politics. And I think u will do the first one cause this way ur government and their concerns earn money.

lol i was at the same point with shock 2 months or so ago,just let it be, some of the us americans are simply just to ignorant and blinded by their one government,to see the truth behind the lies, but the higher they are, the harder they fall,its just a matter of time. :cool:

[SMIV]

Good Lord!

What happened to the Dungeon Lords forums?! Had I known "The Daily Show" & "The Colbert Report" moved to the Dreamcatcher forums I'd have cancelled my cable cause this is great!! Americans, Germans, and SKINHEADS! OH MY!
I'm actually hoping the 1.4 patch never comes out cause I can see the forums returning to normal and that just shouldn't happen. This is just PURE entertainment. I need to do a search of some other shoddy games and join their forums just to see if they friggin lost it too!

I would never presume to say one group or another is right or wrong in your discussion. I will however be hopping on the "American" wagon cause it is the greatest place in the world to live. Not much left to be said there.

FLAME ON!!!

[Phaidon]

lol i was at the same point with shock 2 months or so ago,just let it be, some of the us americans are simply just to ignorant and blinded by their one government,to see the truth behind the lies, but the higher they are, the harder they fall,its just a matter of time. :cool:
K, good to know that not all American think that all other r silly^^.
A German authoress said (roughly translated): "You are hit most hard by truths which u hide in front of yourself."
And thanks (to shock too^^) that u only speak about my opinion and not about my bad spelling*g*.

[mollly_red]

K, good to know that not all American think that all other r silly^^.
A German authoress said (roughly translated): "You are hit most hard by truths which u hide in front of yourself."
And thanks (to shock too^^) that u only speak about my opinion and not about my bad spelling*g*.

not that you misunderstand me, i didnt mean i am american, actually i am greek.i meant there are many US (us for usa,there isnt just the usa in america) americans with a clear mind, i met some myself and they share our opinions about theyr country and whats wrong with it and i dont care about bad english as long as i can understand the meaning im fine,actually my english isnt very good either,

[Phaidon]

don't matter - I knew Americans too who haven't the opinion of shock.

[ferncliff]

not that you misunderstand me, i didnt mean i am american, actually i am greek.i meant there are many US (us for usa,there isnt just the usa in america) americans with a clear mind, i met some myself and they share our opinions about theyr country and whats wrong with it and i dont care about bad english as long as i can understand the meaning im fine,actually my english isnt very good either,
I appreciate what your trying to say and I definitely don't want to get involved with this thread but do you really think you can classify all Americans as the ones who have it right (agree with you) and those who have it wrong? Give us a break! There are almost 300 Million of us. We have a few more then 2 opinions. D

[mollly_red]

I appreciate what your trying to say and I definitely don't want to get involved with this thread but do you really think you can classify all Americans as the ones who have it right (agree with you) and those who have it wrong? Give us a break! There are almost 300 Million of us. We have a few more then 2 opinions. D

i know this ,sorry that i didnt accentuate it. but its exactly the way the us government acts there is just black and white for them nothing else.

[sfhand]

The STFUs weren't directed personally at you to begin with. You have a bunch of "popups" like SFHand who pops out of nowhere and is basically a nobody instigating World War III. Let them live their vacuum sealed lives.

You really need to improve your trolling skills (and your name too, it's not working). I suggest you look in the upper right hand corner of this post, you will see my join date there. Now go look in the upper right hand corner of your last post, you will see your join date there. You're the noob, get it? And before you go talking about post counts let me tell you they mean nothing, especially when they consist of pictures admonishing others to STFU.

As far as being a nobody is concerned, well, this is the internet; we're all nobodies here, except you of course, you're special.

So sad, too bad

[Shock]

Some of you people are scarey. Stop terrorism.

[mollly_red]

Some of you people are scarey. Stop terrorism.

You are the scary one here, Stop BS'ing :)

[Phaidon]

Some of you people are scarey. Stop terrorism.
"Terrorism is the war of the poor ones and war is the terrorism of the rich ones". So if u don't want that the poor defend their freedom with terror stop fighting them with ur army.


I appreciate what your trying to say and I definitely don't want to get involved with this thread but do you really think you can classify all Americans as the ones who have it right (agree with you) and those who have it wrong? Give us a break! There are almost 300 Million of us. We have a few more then 2 opinions. D
Sure u r right. But what is the value of an opinion when it has no influence at that what u r doing?

[sfhand]

"Terrorism is the war of the poor ones and war is the terrorism of the rich ones". So if u don't want that the poor defend their freedom with terror stop fighting them with ur army.


Sure u r right. But what is the value of an opinion when it has no influence at that what u r doing?

I saved a copy of c-span's coverage of the ACLU lawsuit on behalf of German citizen Khaled El-Masri. Here's a link:
http://dailydissent.org/video/khaledelmasri.wmv

Not all Americans are slumbering or blind - many are taking action. As I watched Condi spinning about US rendition policies I wondered how she would feel if it was her going through what Mr. El-Masri went through. The thing about Americans who support these policies is they never stop to wonder what it would be like if it was happening to them, be it airplanes dropping bombs, artillery raining white phospherous, foreign soldiers occupying the country, or people kidnapping them at gunpoint and torturing them without regard to due process.

I don't accept the argument that accused terrorists have no rights. The notion of innocent until proven guilty is at the very core of our rule of law and I believe that any American posting on this board would expect to be considered innocent until proven guilty. Every American posting on this board probably believes they should not be tortured. What kind of person would think they deserve these protections yet deny them to others???

[Phaidon]

Thank u for the link. I am happy that the ACLU will sue this case cause in Germany it would be a little bit difficult. First only the person who was affected can do it and second it has to be an action of the German iudicative, legislative or excekutive. But the guys who tortured were lead by the US. So u could only sue that the German government failed to guarantee to human dignity of this person. But they had no chance to do it cause they only knew it after the US noiticed that they got the wrong person and released him (against the Gueneva Conventions too). They gave him a lawyer to look up the possibilities. The only thing what they didn't do was to make the case public. So it would be useless to sue against the German government.

The international court for war crime can't do anyting too cause the US forbid to accuse US citizens.

I just read a translation of an article of the Wall Street Journal. Guys like Shock r authors in the US? In the article is written that Europe has to support the US cause they helped Europe in the past and if the next time a fascist dictator in Europe will arise we would whine and crying for help that the US shall kill teh bad man.

[sfhand]

Thank u for the link. I am happy that the ACLU will sue this case cause in Germany it would be a little bit difficult. First only the person who was affected can do it and second it has to be an action of the German iudicative, legislative or excekutive. But the guys who tortured were lead by the US. So u could only sue that the German government failed to guarantee to human dignity of this person. But they had no chance to do it cause they only knew it after the US noiticed that they got the wrong person and released him (against the Gueneva Conventions too). They gave him a lawyer to look up the possibilities. The only thing what they didn't do was to make the case public. So it would be useless to sue against the German government.

The international court for war crime can't do anyting too cause the US forbid to accuse US citizens.

I just read a translation of an article of the Wall Street Journal. Guys like Shock r authors in the US? In the article is written that Europe has to support the US cause they helped Europe in the past and if the next time a fascist dictator in Europe will arise we would whine and crying for help that the US shall kill teh bad man.

The WSJ is a notorious right wing rag, and even though I find their writers to be intellectually dishonest, they are still more thoughtful and literate than someone who's only argument is calling people names and posting pictures with STFU on it.

[Phaidon]

Ok, I know only this one translation so I shouldn't judge about them. Imho the summation of the article was STFU too (but only as metaphor not a real image^^).

edit: And cause in Germany kiddies use English for flaming to be "cool" English invectives r only funny for me cause I see always an angry German teenager^^.
A German " HALT'S MAUL" or just "FRESSE!" sounds harder ;).

[sfhand]

Not every American conservative is a whacko:

http://dailydissent.org/video/johnduncan120805.wmv

[Shock]

You are the scary one here, Stop BS'ing :)

haha! ;)

[oink]

Good Lord!

What happened to the Dungeon Lords forums?! Had I known "The Daily Show" & "The Colbert Report" moved to the Dreamcatcher forums I'd have cancelled my cable cause this is great!! Americans, Germans, and SKINHEADS! OH MY!
I'm actually hoping the 1.4 patch never comes out cause I can see the forums returning to normal and that just shouldn't happen. This is just PURE entertainment. I need to do a search of some other shoddy games and join their forums just to see if they friggin lost it too!

I would never presume to say one group or another is right or wrong in your discussion. I will however be hopping on the "American" wagon cause it is the greatest place in the world to live. Not much left to be said there.

FLAME ON!!!

Yeah, this flaming is quite fun ... at least more than DL. By the way: Does the german patch 1.4 work on top of the US version? I was stupid enough to buy it when i was in the states the day DL was released:(

To add my share to the 'US vs. earth' case i can only say so much: I'm living in europe and are working quite a bit with peers in the states. I know people in the states have more than one opinion but you can basicaly devide them in a group that does not support bush, one that doesn't like bush but supports everything the government does because they are patriots and one that actualy loves bush.

The third group doesn't care for other cultures or human rights and thinks US citizens are better than the rest of the world (why does this sound familar ... germany ... seventy years ago ...). The majority of the US citizens (group one and two) are a bit smarter (all with an IQ above 80 i guess) and are actually really nice pals. In a few years they get a chance to improve things and restore a bit of USAs 'shine'. Up to that point i fear that group two, three and planet earth need to live with a situation where bush wags a war on terrorism but you can't be sure if the newspaper writes about the US army or Al-Qaida when you read an article that describes how an innocent civilian was kept hostage for month, tortured, etc ... or a building has been bombaded killing innocent people. But they all do it to create a better world ... in the name of christ or allah. I don't think one OR the other would like the abuse of their name.

[Visigoth]

The last I heard, no US soldiers beheaded innocent civilians in the name of Allah.



-ducks-

[Axell]

Nobody's perfect.
British police mistook a brazilian for a islamic and shot the guy to death. :o

[sfhand]

The last I heard, no US soldiers beheaded innocent civilians in the name of Allah.



-ducks-


Last I heard a US soldier came back and blew up a Federal Building (including day care center). As I recall he was given an attorney and was presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Meanwhile, the argument about being "not quite as bad" doesn't fly. Our soldiers have tortured people to death in Iraq and probably elsewhere too. I'd venture to say if you were given a choice between being tortured slowly to death or being beheaded you'd choose the latter, I know I would.

I'm an Amercian and I expect more of other Americans than I do of people from 3rd world countries, especially when the people doing the torture are doing it on my dime.

[Visigoth]

Last I heard a US soldier came back and blew up a Federal Building (including day care center). As I recall he was given an attorney and was presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Meanwhile, the argument about being "not quite as bad" doesn't fly. Our soldiers have tortured people to death in Iraq and probably elsewhere too. I'd venture to say if you were given a choice between being tortured slowly to death or being beheaded you'd choose the latter, I know I would.

I'm an Amercian and I expect more of other Americans than I do of people from 3rd world countries, especially when the people doing the torture are doing it on my dime.


Ok Einstein, so how do you get information from a prisoner that is not afraid of death?

[sfhand]

Ok Einstein, so how do you get information from a prisoner that is not afraid of death?

I'm not trained in the field so I will defer to someone who has experience in that area:

Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism, recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."

I don't remember the guys name, but there was a terrorist, captured during the Clinton administration, who was cooperating because the FBI was using techniques like Mr. Johnson describes above. After BushCo came into power, with Mr. Ashcroft as Attorney General, the FBI was ordered to change its tactics and the guy quit giving us information.

As I understand it, when a person is being tortured they usually say what ever the they think the torturer wants to hear. That's why that guy, al-libi (or whatever)told the Egyptians that Saddam was training Al-Qaida; they were torturing him so he made up a story to get them to stop.

So, do you suggest we torture Scooter Libby? How about Bush, just to see if he lied about the WMD's? Maybe we should torture all of them since they seem to think its an acceptable method of intelligence gathering... Nah, I don't want America to sink any lower than it already has. Torture is not acceptable and we were preaching that for years during the cold war.

[sfhand]

Here's another Mr. Johnson's take. He has experience in this area as well.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/562/5746990.html

and is a much better writer than me.

[chamr]

The last I heard, no US soldiers beheaded innocent civilians in the name of Allah.



-ducks-

Dude. Don't even try. Do you think history started in 2001 or something? America as a country has carried out it's fair share of atrocities. Don't make me list them. I'm sure you can come up with a few on your own.

[Shock]

Dude. Don't even try. Do you think history started in 2001 or something? America as a country has carried out it's fair share of atrocities. Don't make me list them. I'm sure you can come up with a few on your own.


Are you talking about Native Americans or Pilgrims?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

The reason for DC's delay in the 1.4 patch is that most of its staff has been working on a sequel to Dungeon Lords. The sequel however, is based on history, not fantasy.

I cannot reveal many details because of nondisclosure agreement with Dreamcatcher but here I will reveal what I can.

Dungeon Lords 2: The Lords of Terror

In Dungeon Lords 2 you get to play the role of the the leader of the world's alltime most evil nation. Play such evil devils as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as they assault the great democracies of the world such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Sadam's Iraq.

Laugh evilly as you torture your democratic prisoners in the White House dungeon, the largest dungeon in the world. As you destory more democracies you get points to apply towards upgrading your torture equipment.

This game lets you be all the evil that you can be. Be the source of all the world's problems. Be a true dungeon lord. Be an American president.

More details to be announced soon.

[mollly_red]

The reason for DC's delay in the 1.4 patch is that most of its staff has been working on a sequel to Dungeon Lords. The sequel however, is based on history, not fantasy.

I cannot reveal many details because of nondisclosure agreement with Dreamcatcher but here I will reveal what I can.

Dungeon Lords 2: The Lords of Terror

In Dungeon Lords 2 you get to play the role of the the leader of the world's alltime most evil nation. Play such evil devils as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as they assault the great democracies of the world such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Sadam's Iraq.

Laugh evilly as you torture your democratic prisoners in the White House dungeon, the largest dungeon in the world. As you destroy more democracies you get points to apply towards upgrading your torture equipment.

This game lets you be all the evil that you can be. Be the source of all the world's problems. Be a true dungeon lord. Be an American president.

More details to be announced soon.

lol that is way to mutch reality in this game for my taste.

[Phaidon]

The last I heard, no US soldiers beheaded innocent civilians in the name of Allah.
The last I heard is that the US use a kind of napalm to burn civilians in the name of freedom.

@Grumpy Old Wizard
What about this game:
Level 1
- U get the briefing that there is an enemy in an other country - every year their amount increases. The reason is they don't want that u have an influence at their country. U should prevent that they became more than 10 persons cause than they r dangerous. U have a little army base there - the majority of the population of this country is pro US so u will protect them against this extrem minority.
Problem - if u kill an enemy there appear 2 new one (they came from the population) - so - what is the solution?
Level 2
- There r several states around one country where u have a military base to protect the majority of the population against the minority. For each one u kill in the occ.. ehm protected country one of each other country moves to the protected country to fight u. So u r allowed by ur government to use rockets, troopts, tanks, etc to prevent them from fight u.
Problem - for each one u kill in the other countries two others of the population decied to fight u too.
- What is the solution?



lol that is way to mutch reality in this game for my taste.
What about C&C Generals? Ok - the GLA have in reality no WMD^^.

@sfhand
- I know about this US senator who was tortured in ehmm Vietnam? he was against torture too, wasn't he a conservative one?
- I didn't understand all of the video - it was a little bit fast - but I think the point is that many conservatives have the opinion that the Iraq was never a danger for the US and they were against the war cause it is against US values.

[Cathail]

It is a fairly well proven fact that torture produces questionable results at best. The US even has provisions for US service members making statements "under duress", exempting them from a number of regulations.

As has already been pointed out, the only advantage torture provides is faster "results". What is amazing is that people still think that getting fast, highly questionable results while committing what most nations in todays world consider atrocities outweighs patient, more reliable approaches. But then we live in a society that demands instant gratification.

[phalzyr]

Oh and don't forget the idealism that because something worse can be done means it isn't evil or bad at all.

Hey I didn't kill him so it was ok that he is a cripple now... Too many people have that morally wrong belief.

Just because The Nazi and other such leaders did really really bad things doesn't mean someone doing less bad things make them a good leader...

There are many ways to get information, and all of them are much more reliable than torture... maybe not as fast or cheap, but that doesn't make it viable.

[Phaidon]

In the UK the supreme court decided that u can use only statements which were made without torture. They inteligence agency said that in "our time" torture is neccessary. Now 22 persons have good chances to be released cause their statements were made under duress in some US torture service points in foreign countries.

Bad news - the US plan not to stop the erm.. ehm patriot act, military order and ur government block a law which forbid torture.

[Shock]

Saddam has admitted placing electrical devices on prisoners' genitalia and administering electrical shocks.

Compared to putting hoods on their heads and making them dance around naked, that's a little more extreme don't you think?

Neither side is right, but you conveniently point your finger at the US when it is most other countries who are well known for administering the worst torture. Just ask your German and Middle Eastern buddies.

You're just like a terrorist. You believe everyone else's actions are wrong but yourself. Get an education and then come back and see us.

[Visigoth]

I'm not trained in the field so I will defer to someone who has experience in that area:

Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism, recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."




yeah, maybe that works back in the sexy cold war days... but now we're dealing with FANATICS. Do you REALLY THINK we can "make them" trust us?? LMAO. Thats like telling a Kamikasee pilot in WW2 that Japan is the enemy.

Let the "experts" do their work and stop worrying about it.

[Visigoth]

Dude. Don't even try. Do you think history started in 2001 or something? America as a country has carried out it's fair share of atrocities. Don't make me list them. I'm sure you can come up with a few on your own.


Maybe, but I'm pretty sure beheading innocent civilians on TV isn't one of them. Lets not start a tit for tat on who committed the most atrocities.... Germany and Russia hold the record on that one (at least in recent times).

[Visigoth]

The reason for DC's delay in the 1.4 patch is that most of its staff has been working on a sequel to Dungeon Lords. The sequel however, is based on history, not fantasy.

I cannot reveal many details because of nondisclosure agreement with Dreamcatcher but here I will reveal what I can.

Dungeon Lords 2: The Lords of Terror

In Dungeon Lords 2 you get to play the role of the the leader of the world's alltime most evil nation. Play such evil devils as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as they assault the great democracies of the world such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Sadam's Iraq.

Laugh evilly as you torture your democratic prisoners in the White House dungeon, the largest dungeon in the world. As you destory more democracies you get points to apply towards upgrading your torture equipment.

This game lets you be all the evil that you can be. Be the source of all the world's problems. Be a true dungeon lord. Be an American president.

More details to be announced soon.



YEAH!!! Abe Lincoln with dual rocket launchers!!! :D

[Visigoth]

Oh and don't forget the idealism that because something worse can be done means it isn't evil or bad at all.

Hey I didn't kill him so it was ok that he is a cripple now... Too many people have that morally wrong belief.

Just because The Nazi and other such leaders did really really bad things doesn't mean someone doing less bad things make them a good leader...

There are many ways to get information, and all of them are much more reliable than torture... maybe not as fast or cheap, but that doesn't make it viable.

OK, point taken. SO forcably injecting drugs into a prisoner, or mentally attacking them isn't a form of torture? You know, I really think that even the basest form of "questioning" can be regarded as "torture" to some morally overblown folks.

[Phaidon]

Compared to putting hoods on their heads and making them dance around naked, that's a little more extreme don't you think?
That is only the regular torture which members of the US armed service r allowed to do. Other "soft" torture is waterboarding. If this don't work u civilated US guys send them to for exampel to Syria where a few rest for the rest of their li.. hm they rest there - under the earth. There they use the same things like u said. Electro at several body parts etc.

[oink]

Saddam has admitted placing electrical devices on prisoners' genitalia and administering electrical shocks.

Compared to putting hoods on their heads and making them dance around naked, that's a little more extreme don't you think?

Neither side is right, but you conveniently point your finger at the US when it is most other countries who are well known for administering the worst torture. Just ask your German and Middle Eastern buddies.

You're just like a terrorist. You believe everyone else's actions are wrong but yourself. Get an education and then come back and see us.

Shock's arguments are really funny. Either he did not listen to or does not understand any of the arguments that people have that don't agree with him ...

[sfhand]

Saddam has admitted placing electrical devices on prisoners' genitalia and administering electrical shocks.
True, and we knew all about it when we were giving him aid. Why mention it now, if you really cared about it the time to make a point about it was when it was happening. Giving him aid while he was committing atrocities is giving him material support. We have laws against giving material support to terrorists.



Compared to putting hoods on their heads and making them dance around naked, that's a little more extreme don't you think?

You're conveniently forgetting to mention those who have died during the torture sessions...



You're just like a terrorist. You believe everyone else's actions are wrong but yourself. Get an education and then come back and see us.

Insulting other people detracts from any point you may be trying to make (I'm not saying I haven't done this too).

[oink]

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure beheading innocent civilians on TV isn't one of them. Lets not start a tit for tat on who committed the most atrocities.... Germany and Russia hold the record on that one (at least in recent times).

I assume you conveniently set the term 'recently' to about 100 years? Than you are right but if you look at the more recent 'recently' it's hard to match Bushs achivements.

And when it comes to torture i don't think the CIA tries to get information ... they know it's unreliable but if a victim 'supports' the CIAs view of the story that serves to justify their deeds in front of the world. The US were struggling hard to prove the faked evidence they did build the war against Iraq on ... so far no waepons of mass destruction turned up.

In the end you can judge somebody only by what he does and not by his motives. From this perspective some may say there is no big difference between the US administration and the terrorists they claim they are after.

I don't say the CIA methods are worse than those used by the so called 'evil' countries but is it really good enough for you to be not much better? I'm pretty sure in present day germany you will find (nearly) nobody who would call torture, murder, death penalty, etc. acceptable for what ever reason!!!

[sfhand]

yeah, maybe that works back in the sexy cold war days... but now we're dealing with FANATICS. Do you REALLY THINK we can "make them" trust us?? LMAO. Thats like telling a Kamikasee pilot in WW2 that Japan is the enemy.

Let the "experts" do their work and stop worrying about it.

Nice claim, what are you qualifications for making it?

Here's what a US Army interrogator, fresh from Iraq, has to say about it. I posted a link to the entire interview in my first post in this thread. Since you seem to be interested in interogation techniques I'm surprised you didn't read it...

How soon after you got into the business of interrogating at Abu Ghraib did it become obvious to you that rapport-building was not the norm around interrogation cells?

Rapport-building was being used among the smarter interrogators; among the more experienced interrogators. And I think that's the only thing I ever saw work, was rapport-building. So it was sort of 50-50, at that point.

But then I got out and worked with other units … and they weren't as interested in rapport-building. That took too much time, they felt, and it wasn't how they wanted to see themselves as interrogators. They wanted to be like Hollywood interrogators, you know.

What does that mean?

Well, it's funny. I noticed in Mosul, for instance, they were playing movies all the time, DVDs were pretty available over there. And just how many movies and TV shows have interrogation scenes in them? These interrogation scenes usually involve a hard-hitting interrogator running psychological circles and intimidating the prisoner at appropriate times, and maybe even sometimes physical torture. So that's how they wanted to see themselves. But that's not how an interrogation plays out in reality, you know? It's this long process of back and forth, and it's a lot more complicated than that.


So, what you're saying is you think our soldiers, when captured, should be tortured by the enemy for any information they may have. Nice...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Scenario:

You have taken your daughter on a camping trip in a very remote area in the mountains. When you arive at the camp site you set up the tent and get everything in order.

You got there later than anticipated but manage to get the tent up and firewood gathered before the sun sets, when the snow begins to fall again.

While you are talking with your daughter someone hurriedly unzips the tent and burts in holding a gun. You recognize him from pictures on TV as a rapist who escaped from a prison hundreds of miles away.

He is well armed and tells you if you try anything he will kill you both. You allow him to tie you up knowing that you don't stand a chance since you are unarmed.

When he takes your daughter off into the woods you struggle against your bonds and manage to slip out of them just before he reenters the tent a couple of hours later.

You suprise him since he thinks you are still tied up and manage to overcome him.

Remember, this is a very remote location in the mountains and the weather is inclement. Your cell phone does not work.

Do you:
1) make friends with him to gain his trust so that maybe he will tell you where your daughter is or
2) torture the monster to obtain your daughter's location, knowing that if your daughter is still alive in the elements (it is snowing) she won't be for long

[Phaidon]

I'm pretty sure in present day germany you will find (nearly) nobody who would call torture, murder, death penalty, etc. acceptable for what ever reason!!!
Don't say to much^^.


@Grumpy Old Wizard
Case in Germany: A guy kidnapped a child. The police got him but they didn't knew where the kid is. One officier said him that if he don't say where the child is he will put him into a cell together with two big "neger" (not my view he said that).
Now he said that he killed it and said where they can find the body.
The officier was accused cause he said that he will "torture" him (its forbidden in Germany). But the judges said that he had "good reasons" and that he didn't want to get a guilty plea only the location of the childen (thought it was alive). So he was punished very soft.
This conviction is disputed cause we say that there should be no reason which legitimate torture.

[sfhand]

A good read for people who are interested in our policies on torture.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/8/104121/3571

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

So would you or would you not torture the rapeist to try to discover your daughter's location or would you let her die (if not already dead)?

[Phaidon]

We in Germany have problems too but we don't know sth about them cause they r secret. For example our Special force (KSK - Commando Special Force) operated in Afgahnistan and maybe in the Iraq (supported US forces) but the parliament know nothin about it. And that these actions r illegal too is obviously. A newspaper said that 12 of them died in Afahnistan - the government started to ivestigate against the newspaper and made no statement regarding the dead ones.
These and other special forces r trained for soft torture too (not official). Stress-situations like loud music cold rooms etc. Or put someone with his anus on a pale with a weight on his knees so that it became a .. very.. not nice situation. But I never heard that they used it they only learn it.


So would you or would you not torture the rapeist to try to discover your daughter's location or would you let her die (if not already dead)?
Sure would I do it but I have the opinion that it is ok if they punish me later for it. Only cause I would do sth it is not right. A civilazed nation wouldn't be civilazed if sth like this would be allowed. For example more than 50% of the questioned boys of an US survey said that they would rape a girl if there would be no negative consequenes for them.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

<<<<I'm pretty sure in present day germany you will find (nearly) nobody who would call torture, murder, death penalty, etc. acceptable for what ever reason!!! >>>>

I agree that murder (the deliberate taking of an innocent human being's life) is wrong.

I do not agree that the death penalty is wrong. I think that the death penalty for certain crimes is quite appropriate actually.

[sfhand]

So would you or would you not torture the rapeist to try to discover your daughter's location or would you let her die (if not already dead)?

Actually, I'd find a different guy, torture him, hold him for an additional 2 months after I was sure he was innocent, and then I'd dump him out in the middle of nowhere, in a foreign country, without money or identification.

What sounds more believable, your make believe story or the one above based on reality?

Are you a member of a vigilance comittee?

So let's say you torture the guy and he tells you she's in a cave 5 miles away. You've hurt him so badly he can't go with you up the side of the steep mountain so you tie him up. You go up there and finally find the cave but it's empty. You make your way back not knowing if she's alive because you've wasted a lot of time on the wild goose chase. When you return there are armed park rangers who arrest you because the guy you tortured wasn't really the guy who abducted your daughter, he just happened to be wearing similar clothing. You are arrested and convicted of a variety of crimes and spend the next ten years in prison learning about another side of your sexuality and you never find out what happened to your daughter because you wasted so much time chasing wild geese that the perpetrator got away.

Make believe is fun!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Actually, I'd find a different guy, torture him, hold him for an additional 2 months after I was sure he was innocent, and then I'd dump him out in the middle of nowhere, in a foreign country, without money or identification.

What sounds more believable, your make believe story or the one above based on reality?

Are you a member of a vigilance comittee?

So let's say you torture the guy and he tells you she's in a cave 5 miles away. You've hurt him so badly he can't go with you up the side of the steep mountain so you tie him up. You go up there and finally find the cave but it's empty. You make your way back not knowing if she's alive because you've wasted a lot of time on the wild goose chase. When you return there are armed park rangers who arrest you because the guy you tortured wasn't really the guy who abducted your daughter, he just happened to be wearing similar clothing. You are arrested and convicted of a variety of crimes and spend the next ten years in prison learning about another side of your sexuality and you never find out what happened to your daughter because you wasted so much time chasing wild geese that the perpetrator got away.

Make believe is fun!

The scenario I presented is not very far fetched at all. Phaidon answered my question honestly that he would indeed torture the rapist to save his daughter.

He would torture the monster as would I because torture is indeed morally justifiable in certain circumstances.

[sfhand]

The scenario I presented is not very far fetched at all. Phaidon answered my question honestly that he would indeed torture the rapist to save his daughter.

He would torture the monster as would I because torture is indeed morally justifiable in certain circumstances.

Your story was NOT believable. First off, why did the guy come back? In reality, he would have killed you on the spot or don't you follow the news? Why don't our law enforcement agencies use torture here in the good ol USofA? Are you saying they should? Do you believe people are innocent until proven guilty? ****, why have courts and costly trials? Do you take the "rule of law" seriously?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Your story was NOT believable. First off, why did the guy come back? In reality, he would have killed you on the spot or don't you follow the news? Why don't our law enforcement agencies use torture here in the good ol USofA? Are you saying they should? Do you believe people are innocent until proven guilty? ****, why have courts and costly trials? Do you take the "rule of law" seriously?

My story is very believable and you will not answer the question because you know that you would indeed torture the man who you recognized as being an escaped rapist who tied you up and forceably took off your daugher and you don't want to admit that torture is ever morally right even to save the life of your innocent daughter.

Yes, I believe in innocent until proven guilty but that does not mean that I have to wait for a court to say someone is guilty before I can defend myself or my daughter. I will defend myself and my family by any and all means necessary. Woe be unto him who would harm my family.

[sfhand]

For historical perspective:
Shasta Groene disappeared along with her 9-year-old brother, Dylan, on May 16, when authorities discovered a triple homicide at their mother's home in Coeur d'Alene.

Sadly, Dylan was also killed. You will notice the kidnapper/murderer/sexual criminal didn't leave any adults alive as witnesses when he abducted Shasta and Dylan.

Try as I might, I can't remember hearing about one kidnapping where adults were tied up and then the kidnapper came back for any reason. Care to name one? Nor do I remember ever hearing about a citizen torturing a kidnapper to get information, care to mention one? Until you do your make believe story is unbelievable, sorry.

Contrary to your claims, torture is immoral. There's no right reason to do the wrong thing.